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Comment by mosburger | Hacker News Reader

"Extremely simple?"

There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people.

1) Barriers to work and emigration

2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?)

3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up - I happen to know who you are, and happen to know that the country to which you moved didn't have that problem. ;)

I know it's not impossible - I follow /r/IWantOut over on Reddit because I have my own fantasies about leaving the U.S. and maybe moving to a Spanish-speaking country with liberal emigration policies (perhaps Uruguay?). But it's not something I feel like I can put my family through at this time - it's definitely not what I'd call "extremely simple."

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There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people.

And one reason why it is extremely simple: if you're not from the U.S. to begin with.

Our universities and business culture lure the best of the best from all over the world to the United States. Our draconian travel rules, lack of privacy and "shoot first, ask questions later" laws discourage them from even visiting let alone live here.

Look like a Muslim? Suspected jihadist. Detained.

Carry more than a few thousands dollars? Drug dealer. Money seized.

One of the 99.99% that don't fall into any suspect group? Still suspected. Violate your privacy and freedoms.

If I were anything but a natural born citizen, this crap would make me leave in a minute.

I am a natural born citizen and have been in Indonesia for 2 years. No complaints.

As a white natural born citizen not carrying more than $100 on a domestic flight from SEA to SFO, still suspected.

The weird part of it was after opting out the TSA thug asked if I wanted to go somewhere private for my government-blessed groping. They must have had the cattle prods and waterboards ready.

In all seriousness, if we want the TSA to remain in any way accountable we need to opt-out, and to do it in public with other fellow travelers watching, since there is no telling what happens when they pull you aside in a room for an "enhanced pat down".

There is a perverse irony to the whole thing though, if a man decides to sit alone in a park, say to get some coding done outside in the sun this automatically means that you are a pedo and the soccer moms will not hesitate to call the police on you. On the other hand you have actual TSA agents groping kids all the time at the airport (http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-23/news/29466700_1_tsa-sp...). They get to wear a uniform and stick their hands down people's pants every goddamn day. Is this what freedom looks like?

You're welcome here in Uruguay... but I think it's a case of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence".

And while we do have liberal emigration policies, the bureaucracy involved cannot be underestimated.

There are another things going on that you will find violations of your privacy - Uruguay has a nationwide ID program with fingerprinting (and probably DNA in the near future).

We don't have cameras or backscatter machines yet, but the current wave of insecurity will probably make people clamor for them soon - weird statistic: you're ten times more likely to be murdered in the U.S., but almost twenty times more likely to be robbed in Uruguay (I had my laptop stolen last month, for example).

The current government isn't likely to cave in easily to the U.S. government, but what about the next one?

You're 100% correct about the incredible amount of bureaucracy for getting residency in Uruguay. After almost a year of waiting, and being told it would probably be at least another six months to a year to have my residency completed, I gave up and moved to Paraguay.

Getting permanent residency in Paraguay was fairly simple. I completed it in about seven months (partially because I needed to wait for my FBI background check). Other people I know had theirs completed in four to six months.

I also find Paraguay to have less government intrusion than Uruguay. Not that Uruguay felt oppressive, but the Uruguayan government is certainly involved in more aspects of business, welfare, regulations, etc., than the Paraguayan government.

Most Paraguayans only speak Spanish, or Guarani (the native language). However, if you're working in the tech sector, it isn't unusual to find people who speak a decent amount of English.

Why an FBI background check for residency in Paraguay? Is this Paraguay's version of FBI? Just curious.

For most countries that I'm aware of, when you apply for permanent residency you need to submit a criminal background check from your home country. They don't want to let in fugitives or violent criminals.

For US citizens, that means the FBI (although you generally have your fingerprints taken by your local police, and send the fingerprint card to the FBI). Since I was already in South America, I had my fingerprints taken at the Paraguayan Interpol office. I sent them to the FBI in the US and waited about 75 days to get my results back.

I also had to get fingerprinted for a criminal background check by the Paraguayan police, even though I had never been in Paraguay before.

Other than that, the process was fairly simple - a copy of my birth certificate (certified by the Paraguayan consulate in the US), a couple of visa-sized photos, and US$5000 to deposit in a local bank for the duration of my application (to prove I'm financially solvent). If you're married or divorced, you'll also need to have those papers legalized.

That makes perfect sense, thanks.

Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public sentiment in the US will change.

> 1) Barriers to work and emigration

While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are looking to leave, it will likely become easier to do so.

> 2) Language barriers

One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally. Two, it might take years to become conversational in a language, but probably only a handful of months to get good enough to do the daily shopping. Three...what everyone else has said: if you know English, there are very few places in the world where you'll ever be completely unable to communicate with someone.

> 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up

Yeah, I understand completely ;-)...

My mother was born in the same house in Switzerland where my grandfather and his brothers and sisters grew up. My great-uncle lived in that same house until the day he died, and my great-aunts still live in the same village to this day. I can only imagine how hard it was for my grandfather and grandmother to give all that up and move their three children to America in the '50s, but they truly believed, at the time, that it was worth it.

At the same time, while I do have family where I live now, I also had to leave behind a large family in the US. Airline tickets are expensive, but manageable for at least once yearly visits. Video chat is all but ubiquitous. Time zones differences are the hardest to manage, but still doable (http://everytimezone.com/ helps, even though they still don't have my time zone).

I don't like that I now feel like I had to leave, though I am very glad that I did leave.

Living in another country, even if only temporarily, is something I would recommend to anyone in any country. A friend is currently living abroad for a year with his two school-age kids, and he seems to be having a blast so far. It will certainly improve your ability to gain perspective. It may change your outlook on life. Certainly, when I left I still harbored the notion that at some future time I might return...I don't feel that way any longer.

"well educated, highly trained American's"

ironic...

well, I didn't say trained in what ;-)

fixed...thanks

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well.

  >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration
  > While real, they can be overcome. Also,
  I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect

This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever.

  >> 2) Language barriers
  > One, you'd be amazed how much you can
  get across non-verbally

So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work.

  >> 3) A lot of us have family support systems 
  that aren't easy to give up
  >Yeah, I understand completely ;-)...

No. I don't think you do. I don't think you have a clue. Your family history aside things are much complicated now.

For example, its hard enough finding a good school in my own neighborhood (US, english speaking) let along transferring my kids to a new school where they don't speak the language and I have to deal with bureaucracy and hope I'm not screwing up their future. Thats just one quick simple example. Tell a 5 year old she'll never see her friends again and good luck learning French, German, Spanish, or whatever.

I really can't believe you replied with "Yeah, I understand completely ;-)..." to that. Seriously.

On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language.

However to do so is by no means: "extremely simple" or even just "simple".

This is HN, you just left a comment, and not expected to write a thesis on the subject.

That not your fault, people white-wash what are complicated situations all the time and over-simplify. However your off the cuff glib advice is not particular accurate or helpful.

Think before you type. Please.

First of all I think that moving to another country because you don't like the US customs might be a bit extreme, but still:

  >> 2) Language barriers
  > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non verbally

>>> So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work.

German here, I have worked in Germany and abroad, I worked with an Australian guy working in Germany that spoke about five words of German and that was completely fine ( he did HTML&CSS stuff, a little bit of PHP). Our client was American as well, but he spoke some German I think. (this was 2008ish)

My managers Manager in a big consultancy was American and stayed in Germany for a year and a half I think and did just fine with only english. The project lead at the same company was from India, didn't speak a word of German. On my last visit to Berlin I was amazed how many foreigners are there and working in tech at the moment, just the stuff you pick up on the street in Friedrichshain is amazing, people talking about databases and pointers while walking past you on the street in English with all sorts of accents you can imagine.

The same is probably true for Amsterdam or Copenhagen, the dutch and the danish are usually excellent with languages.

I guess on a completely personal note; in school I took French, German, and Irish classes.

I suck at all three.

My English is also terrible before that first cup of coffee in the morning too.

Hey ho! That ending was unnecessarily rude. I don't think he planned his post as a personal attack on you or your values, so I don't think the hostility is necessary.

For some people it's easier than for others. I work with a ton of people who've migrated to Sweden. I think they find 1 and 2 fairly easy -- not trivial, mind you, but not hard enough that they can't be overcome. The third problem varies from person to person and what stage in life they're at. We have many people who have moved here with kids, and it seems to work out well. So it's certainly not unsurmountable, but yes, not easy either.

Yes - re-reading that now. It came off as rude that was NOT my intention. Sorry - I apologize. (probably best not to edit it, and hope they see this follow-up?)

It was my desperate attempt to implore them (and people in general) to think through their responses before hitting Submit.

Opinion is great, but we're all too trigger happy to post our own view. Often its best if we didn't contribute on matters we are not well versed in.

I'm guilty of this myself. Not implying I'm not.

Its a futile exercise I'm sure, but somethings I feel like I have to try.

>On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language.

An aside, but why did you move from Ireland to the US? I'm semi-seriously considering moving to the UK or Ireland, not out of any "argh america is literally hitler, i'm out" impetus, but to be closer to my girlfriend's family and for adventure.

The short (and unhelpful) answer is that I didn't intend to move here.

I came here for a long vacation of sorts (quit dev job in Ireland, swore never work in IT again, first stop on taking a year out to travel the world...).

I was at a point where I'd over-stayed tourist visa and was getting ready to move on and then I met a girl...

Thanks for the response; still a helpful answer.

So it goes! I don't know why it surprises me, but a sizable portion of the expats here in Berlin originally came for a guy/girl.

Meeting a guy/gal is a major biological driver in life. Other than food/physical safety, what is more important in life?

I agree with you that moving to another country is not simple. But I would like to offer some experience which might be encouraging to those who decide to do so.

1. I was able to happily work and live in Spain for couple of months with no knowledge of Spanish language whatsoever. It certainly limits your choices to a certain degree (I worked for one UK-based company which sent me to Madrid and it would have been difficult to find any Spanish-speaking job if I had to) but it's easier than you would think.

Now I live in the Czech Republic and I regularly visit 'English meetings' (imagine weekly organized party where anybody who speaks English is invited) and I know many foreigners (some of them are my close friends) who happily live here for years without any knowledge of Czech language.

2. Children - oh, how many times I was envious of their incredible adaptability. If they are younger than 10 - wherever you go they will have new friends in two weeks and they will speak fluently with no accent in 6 months. I had seen it many times with children of my Czech/Slovak friends when I lived in UK and I can see that now with children of my foreign friends living in the Czech Rep. 8 years old daughter of my Spanish friends speaks Spanish, Russian, Czech and English without any noticeable accent - her family moves a lot and I believe she will benefit from that tremendously. Children are so good at this that they don't need language lessons - they just pick it up from their peers while playing in a sandpit.

Disclaimer: there's a lot of generalization here.

You've only got half of the domino effect. Sure, it might become easy from a paperwork standpoint, but supply/demand will kick in and wages will drop.

In most countries recruiting immigrants is a royal pain in the ass. The main redeeming factor is that in the case where the immigrant's primary motivation is entry into the country (aka a work visa), the recruiter has an excellent negotiating position, especially when the visa in question keeps the immigrant bound to the sponsoring company.

Emigrating Americans are a little different, however. We're pretty highly paid in comparison to the rest of the world, and we're usually quite happy to stay in, or return to, our home country if we can't find something that suits us. Couple this with a good education and success in American industry, and this gives us a pretty powerful negotiating position in comparison with other immigrants. We still might not get anything comparable to an American salary, but at least we're able to negotiate rather than just having to accept whatever is handed to us.

This changes as soon as you remove the safety net. If there isn't a huge outflow of Americans, those who are emigrating because they truly want to leave America can just bluff their way through it. If there's a huge outflow however, this negotiating position will quickly be lost, at least in the countries to which most Americans would wish to be immigrants.

2) Language barriers

Language is not an overwhelming barrier for a technology professional if approached correctly. Assuming you need to learn a major western European language, a good rule of thumb is 250 hours of work to become sufficiently conversational for shopping and travel, and between 500 and 750 hours to defend an opinion coherently on a day-to-day topic. (For a totally unrelated language, multiply by 4.) You'll still be at a linguistic disadvantage, but you'll be able to pick up the phone and deal with confused customer service representatives or whatever. Real ingrained fluency and an educated vocabulary takes longer, but most people are in excellent shape after a couple of years of immersion and a bunch of reading.

On the professional side, most HTLAL readers will be able to find jobs using large amounts of English. French programmers, for example, tend to read English fluently, attend talks in English (even at French conferences), and write some fraction of their code in English.

I learned this while trying to improve my technical French—I went shopping for French programming books, French programming podcasts, etc., and I would up finding (a) very few technical books, (b) French programming news aggregators with 60% of the links in English, (c) French programming conferences where every single speaker spoke English, and (d) lots of very friendly French programmers with English skills ranging from serviceable to excellent.

If you want to live in another country for a while, don't let language be the factor that stops you.

1) but everybody can go somewhere

2) immersion will do wonders, and yes, we do speak English in other countries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysg_FoWOue8

3) That's a tough one. Emigration isn't for everybody and this is one of the main reasons.

May I suggest Germany? At least in regards to your first point, they have recently relaxed barriers. Right now all you need is a four-year degree in order for you to come and look for work for up to 6 months. The chances of anyone reading this finding work are extremely high because there's a shortage of skilled professionals.

http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/

Or, start out studying for a Master's degree first to get comfortable with the country. (Many are taught in English,and would be free. I can recommend certain programs if anyone is interested).

I speak enough German to not completely embarrass myself when out in public, and I would like to get my Masters in Computer Science (adding on to my BSc in Computer Science). What programs would you recommend?

Take a look at this one for instance: http://www.cs.uni-saarland.de/index.php?id=131

Hi, sorry for the late reply!

First step is to figure out if you prefer a University or a "Hochshule" -- kind of a foreign concept. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochschule).

The Universities come with more prestige, are larger, offer a wider variety of programs, and are more theoretically based. Therefore if you like computer science theory, taking classes that are math-intensive and could include things like algorithm optimization or building compilers, a University is the clear choice. I have heard only awesome things about TU Munich and TU Darmstadt, although any of the big TU's are probably great.

The other option, a Hochschule, is more practice based. Although there will be a mixture of theory and practice at both types, the distinction lies in the emphasis. So if you want to spend more time going straight to writing code, a Hochschule might be the better choice. The other advantages of a Hochschule are that they can be focused on a particular topic (if you are looking for something specific) and they definitely will have smaller classes. This means the professors know you, and you go directly to them for help for which they are often freely available (contrast with a Uni -- usually either go to a TA or have to schedule an appointment with the prof a week ahead through their secretary etc.)

I went to a Hochschule and was beyond pleased. There were only 20 people in my whole program so the individual help you can get from Professors was amazing. I actually studied Geoinformatics not Computer Science directly (and therefore searched for that specialty), but I think any of the larger cities will have good Comp Sci M.Sc. possibilities at their Hochschules.

In any case you can always visit ahead of time if you can to talk to the professors and sit in on classes. If that's not possible they are also very responsive to calls and emails... they often have preferred quotas for foreign students and love to recruit them.

Hope that helps!

I'm not an American, but one thing that bothers me about working abroad are the strict rules about levels of education. "You only need a four-year degree," is easy enough for someone who had the opportunities in life to go through that track. I have been very successful in life without a degree but attaining work visas is bloody difficult.

You can also go to Germany to simply study the German language for up to six months. I think you need a 4yr degree (not sure) and need only study for 18hrs/week if I recall. You're not allowed to work, but should you find a job, I was told by several employers there that the Blue Card easy to get and takes about a month.

I'm strongly considering it. I know enough German now to make a fool of myself there. Oh and at least in the software scene, and maybe tech in general, I've found Germans to be completely fluent in English, and some companies even state in their job ads that English is the language that they conduct business in. I was surprised to learn that outside of tech, things got more dicey. Many non-university-educated people did not speak English or spoke it with difficulty. Even a pharmacist I met really struggled. So for interactions outside of tech, a little German would help, and that's part of what the cultural "integration" classes offer. [edit: add ref to Blue Card]

Do you need to have a savings that you can live off of for 6 months (if you can't work)? I agree with the others in this thread the idea of moving is very easy. Just getting a visa can be expensive.

To jballanc's credit I think it really is extremly simple in theory, if you are OK with the excrucingly expensive route:

1) Barriers to work and emigration

Not if you have enough money or a high enough level of education and income. Paying a lawyer to iron out some problems can help avoiding some traps too.

2) Language barriers

These can be overcome, but not having to deal with a lot of menu details in your life (i.e "how to apply for family aid with the new flat I am trying to rent"), going to places that have english speaking staff, doing as much as you can online etc. simplifies it a lot. But it costs more overall.

3) A lot of us have family support systems

This is the most difficult point, and no amount of money will resolve some problems (adaptation, home sickness, culture etc). But others like schooling your kids in an international school (it's about 8000~10000 dollars a year at least I think), have someone speaking your language take care of them etc. eases things a lot.

I don't think this kind of money can be taken for granted, and only a smallish portion of people are at these levels of wealth[1]. It was just to bring a point about how "simple" changing a country could be depending on your means.

[1] Otherwise if you can get a company or country to pay for these expenses, it's great for you. BTW I'm far from having that kind of money, so it's just hearsay and personal research.

On the other hand, at the moment you are still free to leave. You might not be so lucky if you wait.

I see where you're coming from. Reminds one of "refuseniks" and modern-day China's queasiness about its people leaving.

But there's always going to be more people who want in than out, and I don't think there's ever be point anywhere in the near future in which this is going to change...

>hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?

The vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are privately owned, on private property. What is the problem here? I don't know where this "surveillance state" idea came from but it's largely a myth.

It is particularly amusing because most times the people complaining about this strongly advocate the freedom to do what you like on your own property, without which there would be no CCTV cameras.

That leaves another "vast" amount of cameras that are public -- in thousands of public spaces. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Everyone who is in the USA and is not a Native American had ancestors who left where they were from. Often not under ideal circumstances, there where no guaranteed jobs waiting for anyone over here, just the opportunity for something better.

Many of my ancestors immigrated to the Americas in the 17th or 18th century.

Best case I have something like 4th or 5th cousins in Europe. Not someone I can just drop into their lives.

I wasn't insinuating that you go back from whence your family came. I was trying to point out that it is in human nature to migrate to somewhere that holds the possibility of a better life. Not knowing the culture or language is not as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.

Not knowing the culture or language is as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.

The #1 concern of someone leaving a country, is whether or not the receiving country is actually a better place. It is absolutely critical to understand the culture of where you're going to, if you expect to evaluate how you're gonna live.

I wouldn't consider that to be a huge barrier, necessarily.

The best way to learn a language, and overcome language barriers, is just to move there. Not to wait until you've got the language. Because, honestly? - If you're not speaking it every day, maintaining reasonable fluency is very difficult. You can't get to that sort of skill just putting in a couple of hours here and there in a piecemeal fashion. Even with the best of intentions, how many hours a day do you speak your new language?

The same factors that work against you in your own country work for you in another's though: It's not that hard to learn a new one if your old one is not particularly dominant in your life. When you, by necessity, go from practising a few hours a week to 12-15 hours every day; while being exposed to excellent speakers of the language, while being heavily incentivised to advance (because, hey, if you don't you'll be lonely and vulnerable) ; you get better at what you're doing very quickly.

So, I wouldn't be too bothered about getting the language particularly nailed down before moving somewhere - provided, of course, you don't immediately need to be working or something. If you do, then hiring a tutor and drilling the basics of the language in first is a good idea - you can get vastly superior results that way than by taking classes with others (who may not be as serious about it as you.)

We can speak english in europe. In scandinavia by the age of 10 most kids speak english fluently.

There are many international IT companies in Europe where English is the lingua franca (speaking from my experience in Catalonia and the Netherlands). Learning the language of the country is a welcome courtesy, but it is often not a requirement.

Just FYI, you mean 'immigration,' not 'emigration'.

Simple not easy.

It's extremely simple. You just pull your finger out and do it. I've hopped continent four times so far in my life, and have no intention of stopping. Sure, family, ties, etc., but it's not like you can't visit them, and languages you learn on the go. People are patient.

Anyway. Better to go now, than to wait for them to take your passports away.

Simple in your context is the act itself without considering all the repercussions that mosburger mentioned.

I'm on my fourth country, but only my third continent. But my feet sure are getting itchy of late.

Moving country is real easy. It's something everyone should try for at least a year or two.

Heh. I'm in a wheelchair. I still haven't done a completely independent trip overseas, but I'm working on it. I guess that'll be an interesting blog when I do.

Real easy is something that only happens when your circumstances fall into some kind of normal bounds.

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