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Comment by jballanc | Hacker News Reader

There is an extremely simple solution: leave.

I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these places have a vigor and sense of excitement that rivals or even surpasses anything you'll find in Silicon Valley.

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"Extremely simple?"

There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people.

1) Barriers to work and emigration

2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?)

3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up - I happen to know who you are, and happen to know that the country to which you moved didn't have that problem. ;)

I know it's not impossible - I follow /r/IWantOut over on Reddit because I have my own fantasies about leaving the U.S. and maybe moving to a Spanish-speaking country with liberal emigration policies (perhaps Uruguay?). But it's not something I feel like I can put my family through at this time - it's definitely not what I'd call "extremely simple."

There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people.

And one reason why it is extremely simple: if you're not from the U.S. to begin with.

Our universities and business culture lure the best of the best from all over the world to the United States. Our draconian travel rules, lack of privacy and "shoot first, ask questions later" laws discourage them from even visiting let alone live here.

Look like a Muslim? Suspected jihadist. Detained.

Carry more than a few thousands dollars? Drug dealer. Money seized.

One of the 99.99% that don't fall into any suspect group? Still suspected. Violate your privacy and freedoms.

If I were anything but a natural born citizen, this crap would make me leave in a minute.

As a white natural born citizen not carrying more than $100 on a domestic flight from SEA to SFO, still suspected.

The weird part of it was after opting out the TSA thug asked if I wanted to go somewhere private for my government-blessed groping. They must have had the cattle prods and waterboards ready.

In all seriousness, if we want the TSA to remain in any way accountable we need to opt-out, and to do it in public with other fellow travelers watching, since there is no telling what happens when they pull you aside in a room for an "enhanced pat down".

There is a perverse irony to the whole thing though, if a man decides to sit alone in a park, say to get some coding done outside in the sun this automatically means that you are a pedo and the soccer moms will not hesitate to call the police on you. On the other hand you have actual TSA agents groping kids all the time at the airport (http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-23/news/29466700_1_tsa-sp...). They get to wear a uniform and stick their hands down people's pants every goddamn day. Is this what freedom looks like?

I am a natural born citizen and have been in Indonesia for 2 years. No complaints.

You're welcome here in Uruguay... but I think it's a case of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence".

And while we do have liberal emigration policies, the bureaucracy involved cannot be underestimated.

There are another things going on that you will find violations of your privacy - Uruguay has a nationwide ID program with fingerprinting (and probably DNA in the near future).

We don't have cameras or backscatter machines yet, but the current wave of insecurity will probably make people clamor for them soon - weird statistic: you're ten times more likely to be murdered in the U.S., but almost twenty times more likely to be robbed in Uruguay (I had my laptop stolen last month, for example).

The current government isn't likely to cave in easily to the U.S. government, but what about the next one?

You're 100% correct about the incredible amount of bureaucracy for getting residency in Uruguay. After almost a year of waiting, and being told it would probably be at least another six months to a year to have my residency completed, I gave up and moved to Paraguay.

Getting permanent residency in Paraguay was fairly simple. I completed it in about seven months (partially because I needed to wait for my FBI background check). Other people I know had theirs completed in four to six months.

I also find Paraguay to have less government intrusion than Uruguay. Not that Uruguay felt oppressive, but the Uruguayan government is certainly involved in more aspects of business, welfare, regulations, etc., than the Paraguayan government.

Most Paraguayans only speak Spanish, or Guarani (the native language). However, if you're working in the tech sector, it isn't unusual to find people who speak a decent amount of English.

Why an FBI background check for residency in Paraguay? Is this Paraguay's version of FBI? Just curious.

For most countries that I'm aware of, when you apply for permanent residency you need to submit a criminal background check from your home country. They don't want to let in fugitives or violent criminals.

For US citizens, that means the FBI (although you generally have your fingerprints taken by your local police, and send the fingerprint card to the FBI). Since I was already in South America, I had my fingerprints taken at the Paraguayan Interpol office. I sent them to the FBI in the US and waited about 75 days to get my results back.

I also had to get fingerprinted for a criminal background check by the Paraguayan police, even though I had never been in Paraguay before.

Other than that, the process was fairly simple - a copy of my birth certificate (certified by the Paraguayan consulate in the US), a couple of visa-sized photos, and US$5000 to deposit in a local bank for the duration of my application (to prove I'm financially solvent). If you're married or divorced, you'll also need to have those papers legalized.

That makes perfect sense, thanks.

Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public sentiment in the US will change.

> 1) Barriers to work and emigration

While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are looking to leave, it will likely become easier to do so.

> 2) Language barriers

One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally. Two, it might take years to become conversational in a language, but probably only a handful of months to get good enough to do the daily shopping. Three...what everyone else has said: if you know English, there are very few places in the world where you'll ever be completely unable to communicate with someone.

> 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up

Yeah, I understand completely ;-)...

My mother was born in the same house in Switzerland where my grandfather and his brothers and sisters grew up. My great-uncle lived in that same house until the day he died, and my great-aunts still live in the same village to this day. I can only imagine how hard it was for my grandfather and grandmother to give all that up and move their three children to America in the '50s, but they truly believed, at the time, that it was worth it.

At the same time, while I do have family where I live now, I also had to leave behind a large family in the US. Airline tickets are expensive, but manageable for at least once yearly visits. Video chat is all but ubiquitous. Time zones differences are the hardest to manage, but still doable (http://everytimezone.com/ helps, even though they still don't have my time zone).

I don't like that I now feel like I had to leave, though I am very glad that I did leave.

Living in another country, even if only temporarily, is something I would recommend to anyone in any country. A friend is currently living abroad for a year with his two school-age kids, and he seems to be having a blast so far. It will certainly improve your ability to gain perspective. It may change your outlook on life. Certainly, when I left I still harbored the notion that at some future time I might return...I don't feel that way any longer.

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well.

  >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration
  > While real, they can be overcome. Also,
  I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect

This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever.

  >> 2) Language barriers
  > One, you'd be amazed how much you can
  get across non-verbally

So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work.

  >> 3) A lot of us have family support systems 
  that aren't easy to give up
  >Yeah, I understand completely ;-)...

No. I don't think you do. I don't think you have a clue. Your family history aside things are much complicated now.

For example, its hard enough finding a good school in my own neighborhood (US, english speaking) let along transferring my kids to a new school where they don't speak the language and I have to deal with bureaucracy and hope I'm not screwing up their future. Thats just one quick simple example. Tell a 5 year old she'll never see her friends again and good luck learning French, German, Spanish, or whatever.

I really can't believe you replied with "Yeah, I understand completely ;-)..." to that. Seriously.

On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language.

However to do so is by no means: "extremely simple" or even just "simple".

This is HN, you just left a comment, and not expected to write a thesis on the subject.

That not your fault, people white-wash what are complicated situations all the time and over-simplify. However your off the cuff glib advice is not particular accurate or helpful.

Think before you type. Please.

Hey ho! That ending was unnecessarily rude. I don't think he planned his post as a personal attack on you or your values, so I don't think the hostility is necessary.

For some people it's easier than for others. I work with a ton of people who've migrated to Sweden. I think they find 1 and 2 fairly easy -- not trivial, mind you, but not hard enough that they can't be overcome. The third problem varies from person to person and what stage in life they're at. We have many people who have moved here with kids, and it seems to work out well. So it's certainly not unsurmountable, but yes, not easy either.

Yes - re-reading that now. It came off as rude that was NOT my intention. Sorry - I apologize. (probably best not to edit it, and hope they see this follow-up?)

It was my desperate attempt to implore them (and people in general) to think through their responses before hitting Submit.

Opinion is great, but we're all too trigger happy to post our own view. Often its best if we didn't contribute on matters we are not well versed in.

I'm guilty of this myself. Not implying I'm not.

Its a futile exercise I'm sure, but somethings I feel like I have to try.

First of all I think that moving to another country because you don't like the US customs might be a bit extreme, but still:

  >> 2) Language barriers
  > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non verbally

>>> So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work.

German here, I have worked in Germany and abroad, I worked with an Australian guy working in Germany that spoke about five words of German and that was completely fine ( he did HTML&CSS stuff, a little bit of PHP). Our client was American as well, but he spoke some German I think. (this was 2008ish)

My managers Manager in a big consultancy was American and stayed in Germany for a year and a half I think and did just fine with only english. The project lead at the same company was from India, didn't speak a word of German. On my last visit to Berlin I was amazed how many foreigners are there and working in tech at the moment, just the stuff you pick up on the street in Friedrichshain is amazing, people talking about databases and pointers while walking past you on the street in English with all sorts of accents you can imagine.

The same is probably true for Amsterdam or Copenhagen, the dutch and the danish are usually excellent with languages.

I guess on a completely personal note; in school I took French, German, and Irish classes.

I suck at all three.

My English is also terrible before that first cup of coffee in the morning too.

I agree with you that moving to another country is not simple. But I would like to offer some experience which might be encouraging to those who decide to do so.

1. I was able to happily work and live in Spain for couple of months with no knowledge of Spanish language whatsoever. It certainly limits your choices to a certain degree (I worked for one UK-based company which sent me to Madrid and it would have been difficult to find any Spanish-speaking job if I had to) but it's easier than you would think.

Now I live in the Czech Republic and I regularly visit 'English meetings' (imagine weekly organized party where anybody who speaks English is invited) and I know many foreigners (some of them are my close friends) who happily live here for years without any knowledge of Czech language.

2. Children - oh, how many times I was envious of their incredible adaptability. If they are younger than 10 - wherever you go they will have new friends in two weeks and they will speak fluently with no accent in 6 months. I had seen it many times with children of my Czech/Slovak friends when I lived in UK and I can see that now with children of my foreign friends living in the Czech Rep. 8 years old daughter of my Spanish friends speaks Spanish, Russian, Czech and English without any noticeable accent - her family moves a lot and I believe she will benefit from that tremendously. Children are so good at this that they don't need language lessons - they just pick it up from their peers while playing in a sandpit.

>On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language.

An aside, but why did you move from Ireland to the US? I'm semi-seriously considering moving to the UK or Ireland, not out of any "argh america is literally hitler, i'm out" impetus, but to be closer to my girlfriend's family and for adventure.

The short (and unhelpful) answer is that I didn't intend to move here.

I came here for a long vacation of sorts (quit dev job in Ireland, swore never work in IT again, first stop on taking a year out to travel the world...).

I was at a point where I'd over-stayed tourist visa and was getting ready to move on and then I met a girl...

So it goes! I don't know why it surprises me, but a sizable portion of the expats here in Berlin originally came for a guy/girl.

Meeting a guy/gal is a major biological driver in life. Other than food/physical safety, what is more important in life?

Thanks for the response; still a helpful answer.

Disclaimer: there's a lot of generalization here.

You've only got half of the domino effect. Sure, it might become easy from a paperwork standpoint, but supply/demand will kick in and wages will drop.

In most countries recruiting immigrants is a royal pain in the ass. The main redeeming factor is that in the case where the immigrant's primary motivation is entry into the country (aka a work visa), the recruiter has an excellent negotiating position, especially when the visa in question keeps the immigrant bound to the sponsoring company.

Emigrating Americans are a little different, however. We're pretty highly paid in comparison to the rest of the world, and we're usually quite happy to stay in, or return to, our home country if we can't find something that suits us. Couple this with a good education and success in American industry, and this gives us a pretty powerful negotiating position in comparison with other immigrants. We still might not get anything comparable to an American salary, but at least we're able to negotiate rather than just having to accept whatever is handed to us.

This changes as soon as you remove the safety net. If there isn't a huge outflow of Americans, those who are emigrating because they truly want to leave America can just bluff their way through it. If there's a huge outflow however, this negotiating position will quickly be lost, at least in the countries to which most Americans would wish to be immigrants.

"well educated, highly trained American's"

ironic...

well, I didn't say trained in what ;-)

fixed...thanks

2) Language barriers

Language is not an overwhelming barrier for a technology professional if approached correctly. Assuming you need to learn a major western European language, a good rule of thumb is 250 hours of work to become sufficiently conversational for shopping and travel, and between 500 and 750 hours to defend an opinion coherently on a day-to-day topic. (For a totally unrelated language, multiply by 4.) You'll still be at a linguistic disadvantage, but you'll be able to pick up the phone and deal with confused customer service representatives or whatever. Real ingrained fluency and an educated vocabulary takes longer, but most people are in excellent shape after a couple of years of immersion and a bunch of reading.

On the professional side, most HTLAL readers will be able to find jobs using large amounts of English. French programmers, for example, tend to read English fluently, attend talks in English (even at French conferences), and write some fraction of their code in English.

I learned this while trying to improve my technical French—I went shopping for French programming books, French programming podcasts, etc., and I would up finding (a) very few technical books, (b) French programming news aggregators with 60% of the links in English, (c) French programming conferences where every single speaker spoke English, and (d) lots of very friendly French programmers with English skills ranging from serviceable to excellent.

If you want to live in another country for a while, don't let language be the factor that stops you.

1) but everybody can go somewhere

2) immersion will do wonders, and yes, we do speak English in other countries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysg_FoWOue8

3) That's a tough one. Emigration isn't for everybody and this is one of the main reasons.

May I suggest Germany? At least in regards to your first point, they have recently relaxed barriers. Right now all you need is a four-year degree in order for you to come and look for work for up to 6 months. The chances of anyone reading this finding work are extremely high because there's a shortage of skilled professionals.

http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/

Or, start out studying for a Master's degree first to get comfortable with the country. (Many are taught in English,and would be free. I can recommend certain programs if anyone is interested).

I speak enough German to not completely embarrass myself when out in public, and I would like to get my Masters in Computer Science (adding on to my BSc in Computer Science). What programs would you recommend?

Take a look at this one for instance: http://www.cs.uni-saarland.de/index.php?id=131

Hi, sorry for the late reply!

First step is to figure out if you prefer a University or a "Hochshule" -- kind of a foreign concept. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochschule).

The Universities come with more prestige, are larger, offer a wider variety of programs, and are more theoretically based. Therefore if you like computer science theory, taking classes that are math-intensive and could include things like algorithm optimization or building compilers, a University is the clear choice. I have heard only awesome things about TU Munich and TU Darmstadt, although any of the big TU's are probably great.

The other option, a Hochschule, is more practice based. Although there will be a mixture of theory and practice at both types, the distinction lies in the emphasis. So if you want to spend more time going straight to writing code, a Hochschule might be the better choice. The other advantages of a Hochschule are that they can be focused on a particular topic (if you are looking for something specific) and they definitely will have smaller classes. This means the professors know you, and you go directly to them for help for which they are often freely available (contrast with a Uni -- usually either go to a TA or have to schedule an appointment with the prof a week ahead through their secretary etc.)

I went to a Hochschule and was beyond pleased. There were only 20 people in my whole program so the individual help you can get from Professors was amazing. I actually studied Geoinformatics not Computer Science directly (and therefore searched for that specialty), but I think any of the larger cities will have good Comp Sci M.Sc. possibilities at their Hochschules.

In any case you can always visit ahead of time if you can to talk to the professors and sit in on classes. If that's not possible they are also very responsive to calls and emails... they often have preferred quotas for foreign students and love to recruit them.

Hope that helps!

I'm not an American, but one thing that bothers me about working abroad are the strict rules about levels of education. "You only need a four-year degree," is easy enough for someone who had the opportunities in life to go through that track. I have been very successful in life without a degree but attaining work visas is bloody difficult.

You can also go to Germany to simply study the German language for up to six months. I think you need a 4yr degree (not sure) and need only study for 18hrs/week if I recall. You're not allowed to work, but should you find a job, I was told by several employers there that the Blue Card easy to get and takes about a month.

I'm strongly considering it. I know enough German now to make a fool of myself there. Oh and at least in the software scene, and maybe tech in general, I've found Germans to be completely fluent in English, and some companies even state in their job ads that English is the language that they conduct business in. I was surprised to learn that outside of tech, things got more dicey. Many non-university-educated people did not speak English or spoke it with difficulty. Even a pharmacist I met really struggled. So for interactions outside of tech, a little German would help, and that's part of what the cultural "integration" classes offer. [edit: add ref to Blue Card]

Do you need to have a savings that you can live off of for 6 months (if you can't work)? I agree with the others in this thread the idea of moving is very easy. Just getting a visa can be expensive.

To jballanc's credit I think it really is extremly simple in theory, if you are OK with the excrucingly expensive route:

1) Barriers to work and emigration

Not if you have enough money or a high enough level of education and income. Paying a lawyer to iron out some problems can help avoiding some traps too.

2) Language barriers

These can be overcome, but not having to deal with a lot of menu details in your life (i.e "how to apply for family aid with the new flat I am trying to rent"), going to places that have english speaking staff, doing as much as you can online etc. simplifies it a lot. But it costs more overall.

3) A lot of us have family support systems

This is the most difficult point, and no amount of money will resolve some problems (adaptation, home sickness, culture etc). But others like schooling your kids in an international school (it's about 8000~10000 dollars a year at least I think), have someone speaking your language take care of them etc. eases things a lot.

I don't think this kind of money can be taken for granted, and only a smallish portion of people are at these levels of wealth[1]. It was just to bring a point about how "simple" changing a country could be depending on your means.

[1] Otherwise if you can get a company or country to pay for these expenses, it's great for you. BTW I'm far from having that kind of money, so it's just hearsay and personal research.

On the other hand, at the moment you are still free to leave. You might not be so lucky if you wait.

I see where you're coming from. Reminds one of "refuseniks" and modern-day China's queasiness about its people leaving.

But there's always going to be more people who want in than out, and I don't think there's ever be point anywhere in the near future in which this is going to change...

>hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?

The vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are privately owned, on private property. What is the problem here? I don't know where this "surveillance state" idea came from but it's largely a myth.

It is particularly amusing because most times the people complaining about this strongly advocate the freedom to do what you like on your own property, without which there would be no CCTV cameras.

That leaves another "vast" amount of cameras that are public -- in thousands of public spaces. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Everyone who is in the USA and is not a Native American had ancestors who left where they were from. Often not under ideal circumstances, there where no guaranteed jobs waiting for anyone over here, just the opportunity for something better.

Many of my ancestors immigrated to the Americas in the 17th or 18th century.

Best case I have something like 4th or 5th cousins in Europe. Not someone I can just drop into their lives.

I wasn't insinuating that you go back from whence your family came. I was trying to point out that it is in human nature to migrate to somewhere that holds the possibility of a better life. Not knowing the culture or language is not as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.

Not knowing the culture or language is as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.

The #1 concern of someone leaving a country, is whether or not the receiving country is actually a better place. It is absolutely critical to understand the culture of where you're going to, if you expect to evaluate how you're gonna live.

I wouldn't consider that to be a huge barrier, necessarily.

The best way to learn a language, and overcome language barriers, is just to move there. Not to wait until you've got the language. Because, honestly? - If you're not speaking it every day, maintaining reasonable fluency is very difficult. You can't get to that sort of skill just putting in a couple of hours here and there in a piecemeal fashion. Even with the best of intentions, how many hours a day do you speak your new language?

The same factors that work against you in your own country work for you in another's though: It's not that hard to learn a new one if your old one is not particularly dominant in your life. When you, by necessity, go from practising a few hours a week to 12-15 hours every day; while being exposed to excellent speakers of the language, while being heavily incentivised to advance (because, hey, if you don't you'll be lonely and vulnerable) ; you get better at what you're doing very quickly.

So, I wouldn't be too bothered about getting the language particularly nailed down before moving somewhere - provided, of course, you don't immediately need to be working or something. If you do, then hiring a tutor and drilling the basics of the language in first is a good idea - you can get vastly superior results that way than by taking classes with others (who may not be as serious about it as you.)

We can speak english in europe. In scandinavia by the age of 10 most kids speak english fluently.

There are many international IT companies in Europe where English is the lingua franca (speaking from my experience in Catalonia and the Netherlands). Learning the language of the country is a welcome courtesy, but it is often not a requirement.

Just FYI, you mean 'immigration,' not 'emigration'.

Simple not easy.

It's extremely simple. You just pull your finger out and do it. I've hopped continent four times so far in my life, and have no intention of stopping. Sure, family, ties, etc., but it's not like you can't visit them, and languages you learn on the go. People are patient.

Anyway. Better to go now, than to wait for them to take your passports away.

Simple in your context is the act itself without considering all the repercussions that mosburger mentioned.

I'm on my fourth country, but only my third continent. But my feet sure are getting itchy of late.

Moving country is real easy. It's something everyone should try for at least a year or two.

Heh. I'm in a wheelchair. I still haven't done a completely independent trip overseas, but I'm working on it. I guess that'll be an interesting blog when I do.

Real easy is something that only happens when your circumstances fall into some kind of normal bounds.

Yeah, I left too. I've lived in a couple parts of Europe and then Japan since leaving. All of them feel more "free" than post-Bush (I guess I really mean post-Bin Laden) USA; people enjoy more civil rights, and (more pragmatically) more freedom from idiotic hassle in the name of... whatever kind of fuckery it is that keeps the prison lobby, the TSA, and the general industrial-fearmongering complex in business and free of logical constraints.

But, leaving is not really a simple solution, at all. It is both complex and unsatisfying. Thankfully, my wife and kid are with me (and btw, compared to Japan, the USA seems like a completely insane place to raise a kid) but I still have family there, not to mention friends, business interests, tax obligations, etc.

I feel like my country is occupied by an enemy force, and that feeling is hammered home every single time I fly home, within minutes of deplaning.

The rampant xenophobia in Japan is what keeps me from moving there. You mean even if I becomes a naturalized citizen (an ordeal in itself) that most places will still treat me like a foreigner? No thanks.

The US is occupied by an enemy force that they supported and elected. Every time another basic human right is violated by the legislative and executive branch those cheer. Does it matter that drunk driving kills more people per year in the US than acts of terror? Does it matter that more people die from prescription drug dispensation mistakes? Not to the mind of the scared American.

Japan isn't any more xenophobic than the US.

I've lived seven years in Japan. Even if I were to get Japanese citizenship, I wouldn't identify myself culturally as Japanese (and neither would Japanese think of me as Japanese).

Countries like the US separate cultural identity and citizenship, so having citizenship but still being seen as a foreigner might seem a bit strange at first. On the other hand, if I was to go to the US, there are certain cultural identities I could never have. For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried.

> For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried.

This hasn't stopped a great many white guys from trying!

Rampant xenowhat?

Yes. It's very different to what you get, for example, in Australia. Or most parts of Europe. Yes, you'll probably be a gaijin forever, even if you get naturalized (and renounce to your other nationality). But there's a huge difference between what the japanese are, and have always been, and xenophobia. Of course you get a different treatment unless you show them what you know and your respect, but it boils down to the kind of society it is and the fact that you're, at first sight, different from them. But different, not worse.

This might sound really weird but I actually believe that for people who like freedom post-communist countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union can be quite good place to live right now.

I had previously spent 7 months in the US and I had lived in UK for 2.5 years and now I live in the Czech Republic. I guess this is very subjective but I believe that for example this country currently offers way more freedom than the "land of free" or UK. It has its downsides but not as many as an average citizen of western country would probably think. You could live pretty comfortable "nice apartment, designer clothes and BMW" life in Prague if you wish so (not that I do). It's not how Americans usually imagine Eastern Europe and because of the past people are more sensitive about government intrusion and the government is weak - do not conflate Eastern Europe with Russia with that weird authoritarian shit (the anti-gay law etc.) - this is completely different world here.

Just my $0.02 - it's about personal priorities. And it still feels weird just saying this... given what I thought 25 years ago.

EDIT: I should not have said 'countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union' - certainly not all of them, for example I hear really nice things about Estonia and I am sure that not all ex-Soviet countries are like Russia.

Every place has their pros and cons. Eastern Europe feels quite free in the context of daily living, but graft and corruption seem to be the mo of the powers that be.

A good deal of Eastern Europe is still quite homophobic and xenophobic, even if there are no actual discrimination laws in place.

Which part of Eastern Europe? I don't know the whole Eastern Europe really well but speaking for the Czech Republic (where I was born) I would say exactly the opposite is true at least when we are talking about tolerance to homosexuality... which might be related to the fact that unlike in the US or UK, religion has practically no influence here.

I base this mostly on what I see around me but I just tried to quickly google something and what I've found seems to support that - for example http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-hom...

I don't know about xenophobia - I don't see it but if there is something above the average it would probably be related to the fact that people are not used to 'xeno' elements because this has always been pretty homogeneous and closed society.

I'd say people in Eastern Europe are quite used to despising Jews. Also, if you are black or Hindu or Pakistani in Czech or Poland, you will notice.

Homophobes, well, not sure how it's in Czech Republic, but say Poland makes Bible Belt look like a bunch of agnostic wusses.

I am beginning to realize that I made a mistake when I started talking about Eeastern Europe as a whole. I am Czech and I only know the Czech Republic really well (and Slovakia, for obvious reasons).

And also Eastern Europe is apparently not as homogeneous as I made it to be - there are big differences for example between catholic countries like Poland and atheist countries like Czech Republic (tolerance to homosexuality, abortion and stuff like that are strongly related to religious views). Despising Jews? I have seen it way more in Western Europe than here.

And if you are black or Hindu or Pakistani please excuse that some people have some bias... please try to understand that this has been very closed society and up until recently there were no black or Hindu or Pakistani people at all. People could not travel during communist regime... there was basically no opportunity to learn tolerance to different cultures etc. Yes, there are some racists here (like everywhere else) but I believe that Czech people are generally above average tolerant. But I am obviously biased.

I'm dual Polish/US citizen. Yes, that's true. However, you need to adjust for cultural differences. I.e. in the US people in general smile to you and pretend they don't mind you're gay. But then, Prop 8 comes up in "liberal" CA, and what happens? Yeah, right liberal. ;-)

You see, the US culture is very, very fake. Americans are fake. They'll smile in your face, tell you how much they love you, and then talk sht about you behind your back and hate just as much as a stereotypical Pole will. The only difference is that in Poland people will tell you stuff in your face while in the US it is all love, sensitivity, smiles and roses and everybody is just trained to talk the talk. But they never walk the walk. The problem with Poles is they had enough communists telling them what to say to be ignorant to the whole political correctness thing.

My guess is that if we could get into people's heads you would see they think probably the same stuff in both places. When for that example they see a gay couple kissing in public. The difference is that in the US they will pretend they're fine with it (and then show you their hate when voting), while in Poland - yeah - they'll openly tell you what they think about you.

[citation needed]

http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-la...

Since I was talking about post-communist countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union I don't think that the Russian example applies here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6282131

true. So is the rest of the world. We are just lacking in the political correctness department.

..and Russians are just putting what you are lacking into a law.

LekkoscPiwa's comment and your reaction to it are IMO very interesting example of a different perception which can lead to so many misunderstandings. Your comment only makes sense if you include Russia into the term 'Eastern Europe' and technically you are right - Russia is part of Eastern Europe. But I am pretty sure that LekkoscPiwa did not mean it this way - when he said 'we' he almost certainly did not mean also Russia. This is a bit difficult to explain to people who are not from here but when we talk about this stuff here we say 'we' in a sense of countries that have similar cultural background - like Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland... Russia is completely different world and they certainly are not perceived as 'we Eastern Europe' - Russia is simply Russia, separate entity, not part of the team, different culture, different rules, even the alphabet is different.

Dear LekkoscPiwa, did I get it right?

I am sure you did not mean it that way but it might be interesting to know that many people would be seriously offended here if you included Russians into the perception of 'them' - people from outside of the Eastern block do not see internal differences important to people who lived inside - like the fact that 'Rusáci' occupied us for many years and are still perceived as the enemy by many people here. To make a simplified example to make it understandable - imagine someone talking about 'you western countries' and including example of 'your' behaviour - Nazi Germany.

Well no, I didn't include former USSR for the sake of discussion. Jew hatred in Poland is surprisingly common, despite actual Polish Jews being virtually extinct since WW2.

The fact that Russia is possibly even more xenophobic than Poland doesn't change much.

I'm Belarussian myself, so well aware of sentiments in the 'hood in either direction. The nuance is not lost on me :)

Jews were about 20% of population in Poland before WW2. Some cities, like Krakow or Lodz, this number was closer to 50%.

Go to Arizona or California and tell me if it is difficult to find people who hate Latinos who don't make even such a big minorities there as Jews used to in pre-war Poland.

This has nothing to do with Jews specifically. Look at this how Arabs are treated in France (Paris) or London.

Once a group that has different language, religion, customs, and its own ghettos is large enough - my guess about 1/3 of total population - the natives will react the way the do. Poland or US, doesn't matter.

Bluntly, I don't really care how Poles are perceived. There's little that can be done about it. And it's actually beyond funny to take the whole country and say "all Poles are like this". Try doing that with Israel or gay. All gay are this or in Israel people just hate Arabs. Try saying that. But, yeah as long as Poland or Russia goes you can degrade as much as you want. And I don't really care, it just shows you that people are racists/xenophobic even when they are victims of racism and xenophobia. Makes it just this much more funny.

I think that Russia today is closer in terms of crazy laws they put in place to the US than to Poland.

I left. I live in Australia now.

It wasn't a simple solution or an easy decision. They just rammed through millimeter-wave machines here, too. And you can't opt out.

http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/bodyscanners/faq.a...

Oh boy! I'm flying overseas soon for the first time in about 7 or 8 years. Does this imply they have backscatter and there's no alternative? I'm guessing this is at every international airport?

I see it's random? Sorry I'd rather ask somebody who's been there then misread the carefully crafted Q&A.

I don't understand the Australian impulse to push this technology when they are under a very low if not non-existent threat. When I was there I was 'wanded' multiple times.

I tend to think they were strong-armed into it.

Airports are only a symptom of a wider problem and I see this as running away. Much like when a bear is chasing you, you only have to be faster than those around you. Eventually the bear will chase you again and you'll be the only one left. To make that a little more concrete, you can only keep moving while there are viable places to move to. Sure, that's probably fine for our lifetimes but we're handing on a legacy where we refuse to fight for anything. When these machines and processes are everywhere they become even harder to fight against.

Edit: Also, moving when you have family (partner, kids), becomes even more complex and stressful. It's simply not a viable option for many.

I'd like to replace your bear with a pendulum. History has shown that public sentiment towards authoritarianism is cyclical. Certainly Nazi Germany represented an authoritarian regime that was more repressive than the current US government (history will tell how long this remains true...), but that played out. Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy.

What leaving does is control how far the pendulum swings. Imagine if Fermi hadn't left Italy? Or consider Lise Meitner who didn't leave Germany when everyone else did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner). In her words, "It was not only stupid but also very wrong that I did not leave at once."

> "Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy."

The part you're conveniently forgetting is at what cost?

Sure, the pendulum may swing back the other way eventually but how many lives are going to be destroyed during these unnecessary oscillations.

Reminds me of a Keynes quote: "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

In this case, the pendulum can remain autocratic far longer than your life is worth it - if you feel that fighting is not possible, perhaps the best move is to worry about your own (family's) safety first.

When a bear is chasing you, if it is a black bear (scared of you) you play dead. When a bear is chasing you and it is a grizzley, you stand tall, don't run, yell, and act combative. Otherwise the bear may see you as lunch.

I think that is a great metaphor here. If the government no longer respects the people, then the right approach is to stand tall and say things loudly. If they do then compliance is better.

> There is an extremely simple solution: leave.

Actually, it's not a solution. If everyone who questions such ineffective and intrusive procedures leave, the ones who imposed them on your fellow citizens win.

It's not my country, but I like it a lot. And it deeply saddens me to see what is happening to it.

Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop. (How would they continue to pay for it?)

May not be a terrible strategy going forward if the US starts looking like an end-stage Weimer Republic, especially since people will have to flee anyway.

> Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop.

On the contrary, I'd expect it to worsen. Engineers and technophiles are some of the most outspoken groups opposed to the surveillance state and other abuses of power, especially technological ones. They're also the groups most likely to invent technological workarounds to abuses of power.

> How would they continue to pay for it?

The same way it's being paid for now: massive debt.

> Engineers and technophiles are some of the most outspoken groups opposed to the surveillance state and other abuses of power

Yes, but it doesn't seem to me like they have any impact whatsoever. Maybe I'm incorrect, though.

> The same way it's being paid for now: massive debt.

If the US economy were to crash (which it would if 50% of STEM workers leave, I think), I'm not sure if US debt would be worth anything.

More generally speaking, though, the US military and intelligence system is very highly dependent on highly skilled STEM workers. I suspect that there is already a labor shortage affecting them, and I suspect that, via their shenanigans, they are running a serious risk of seriously crippling their capabilities in the upcoming decades.

Among my colleagues in grad school, I was one of minority that was seriously willing to consider work in the military sector as a career, and now even I'm not.

Keep in mind it's an end-stage Weimar Republic with huge military power and operational nukes.

Well, it isn't yet an end-stage Weimer Republic. I'm just saying that it could forseeably, possibly get there.

And while the US could implement many aspects of fascism (particularly government control of industry that is nomially help privately, which is alredy the case for telecom), a war for global domination is not likely one of them.

Rather than leave, the better solution is to force the rights-violators to stop. They are the ones in the wrong, they should be ashamed and shamed.

This reminds me of the NSA recruitment session at the University of Washington (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIHvbYYxJo) where the NSA agent tried to tell a skeptical student that she should not keep asking embarrassing questions, because even if an NSA job was not right for her, she should not prevent other students from joining the agency. In other words, it's fine to disagree with turning your country into a police state, you don't have to join the secret police, but don't interfere with your fellow citizens who want to profit from joining the police force.

"when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." --Edmund Burke

as someone who recently moved TO the US - you are delusional. as if there is a magic, fairy place that is freedom and liberty and pixies.

Asia? good luck, the individual has awesome rights, try talking badly about the thai royalty for example. go on, please do.

Europe? Just moved from there, great place. But if you're looking for the right to act out your individual freedom (which ends where it impacts the freedom of ours), then you're in for a suprise. US constitution does not apply there. No amendments. No pleading the fifth or other stuff.

Maybe Somalia is the place for you. No one will force you through a milliwave scanner there.

Just off the top of my head, countries that are both freer and less insane: Canada, The Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Singapore, Estonia, Latvia, Switzerland.

Freer in terms of personal freedom, civil rights, economic freedom.

In the US you have:

1. Forced to sign up for the draft.

2. Your "Army Reserves" and "National Guard" DEPLOYED to fun places like Afghanistan on a rotating schedule. No they did not agree to it, reserves are meant to defend a country when it is attacked, not to be pulled into a regional conflicts. Canada for example, has reserves, but they arn't in Afghanistan unless they volunteer to.

3. Every call and email monitored.

4. A militarized police state.

5. Massive hidden intelligence budgets.

6. Drug sales by intelligence forces.

7. 5% of GDP just on the military, let alone "intelligence" and "security" (NSA / CIA / TSA / etc).

8. Private prisons with bribed judges.

9. 1% of men in jail, CURRENTLY (with more on parole).

10. 0.5% of women in jail.

11. Domestic drones.

12. Laws against using cryptography without registering it with the NSA.

13. The most aggressive fingerprint collection system out of any country in the world.

14. Unbearable licensing for alcohol, firearms, businesses, hair dressers (state dependent).

15. Project mockingbird (seriously wtf is the point of a "free press" if your own CIA has infiltrated it).

16. A do not fly list that has millions of people on it none of which can contest the reasons why. This is made worse since it was held up by the courts (under the guise that they can always take a train). In Canada we have less than a thousand people and there is a mechanism for challenging it.

America only feels free while you are there and under the radar.

oh boy, would you be surprised about NL and CH.

you don't like the draft in the US, which never gets executed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland "Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable."

you cite rules about firearms and business as a downside in the US? the most hilarious thing ever. come over to Europe, please, and try to buy a handgun. plus open a business.

no fucking clue about the world, but spewing BS.

talk to leftist/liberals in the countries you've listed, please do. they all complain about the very same things. we have had biometric passports here for a while now, etc.

the big difference between the US and Europe? The US has the means to actually execute their ideas. the EU is slowly moving towards the US model by joining forces and sharing resources.

I have seen more of the world than you would guess, and there is this FUD all over the place. I was on the fence about including Switzerland, but their banking law and gun law is much more sane than the US.

The draft in the states was used in Vietnam.

Opening a business in ALL of Europe is hard (especially France) but in most of the countries I listed it is easy. Stop grouping all of Europe into one big thing.

Biometric passports are horrible, but the US requires it for certain forms of visitation.

the draft was used in Vietnam, and since then? not like the US ran out of wars. what the hell are you trying to prove?

and for the record, I am European, Austrian in fact.

and the US is now requiring it's own citizens to use the biometric passport? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport#Countries_us...

now how about that.

"NL Passports issued from 21 September 2009 include fingerprints. Dutch identity cards are lookalike versions of the holder's page of the passport and contain the same biometric information."

You're misinformed and wrong, but you'll never admit it. Whatever.

While I agree with you on numerous points, your point #1 is pretty much par for the course in lots of countries.

In fact, I think the move to not draft those signed up (forcibly, I agree) is the reason that some of the other points (e.g.: #2,#3) are even issues - if the burden of war were spread in a regular manner (and forcibly) on the US populace, there would be very little tolerance for war... all those armchair soldiers buying guns would be off fighting a war or suffering through a family member getting killed/wounded involuntarily (just like the poor citizens of the country that's being occupied).

You confuse group outcomes for individual rights. It is wrong to force me to die for your cause. It is just that simple.

it's a shame that you draw a comparison between liberty and magic.

I know hacker news doesn't generally appreciate comments like this, but moving to Europe is the last thing you want to do if your objection is based on the political theory of individual liberty. Practically speaking the US is losing respect for personal freedom, but at least there's a legal framework and founding ideal for it here.

If your rely on rules to maintain order, bad actors will figure out how to "game the system". If you rely on people to maintain order, bad actors will bribe and corrupt those in charge.

The US has traditionally relied more on rules, and you are correct in citing that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights still represent the most comprehensive set of rules in the world guarding personal freedom. In turn, you also have "enemy combatants", "extraordinary rendition", "enhanced interrogation techniques", "national security letters", and "corporate personhood" that all represent ways in which people have gamed the system. Rules, alone, are not enough. You also need people.

(Consequently, where I live now there has always been much greater reliance on people over rules, and as such corruption is a major problem... Striking the right balance can be difficult.)

Could you elaborate on why you believe European countries to have no legal framework for individual liberty? (if I understood your statement correctly)

This is an honest question — I believe things to be exactly the opposite, but I'll correct my belief if I'm wrong.

Leaving is a short term solution.

A lot of countries are scalating in surveillance because there is the perception that US is trying to desestabilize a lot of governments with this disclosed programs. And, of course, could be for real, so the country where you land could eventually be desestabilized in a few years, and things will get ugly (look at middle east for a hint).

And, as a foreigner. your privacy on the global internet is ensured to not be respected by US intelligence agencies, at all. Not that it would make a difference in a few years, but still is something to take into account.

The only place on the world where you can have a chance to revert this trend is US, staying, voting, being active, chances are pretty slim, but better than the zero you get if are outside.

I agree with the general spirit of your post, however:

Amsterdam Schipol has (a lot of) scanning machines as well.

Germany has more freedom in certain areas and less freedom in others. (you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example)

I'd also add that the three worst travel experiences I've ever had were: immigration at Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, anything at all London-Heathrow, immigration at Toronto Pearson.

Schiphol, El Prat, Marco Polo, Dublin, da Vinci, Kloten and Munich get me in and out without any fuss at all. Though security at Schiphol was about what you'd contend with at Dulles.

Domodedovo and Koltsovo are very mediocre and busy, but function. You might get harassed by security, you might not. Who knows? It's Russia after all.

Kuwait was easy-in easy-out, but basic airport services were generally a mess, due mostly to rampant queue hopping that none of the employees put a stop to.

My consistent best anywhere is traveling to South Korea. I would replace every airport on the planet with Inchon Int'l if I could.

In the U.S. Washington DC-Dulles and Denver are pretty smooth operations most days, JFK and LaGuardia are crowded but function and security doesn't really harass you, Charleston, SC is one of the easiest to get in and out of (even internationally). San Francisco, Sea-Tac and Portland are..."alright". LAX kinda sucks. O'Hare is a nightmare almost on the scale of Heathrow and Atlanta is a mess most days with what must be strictest security on the planet.

> I'd also add that the three worst travel experiences I've ever had were: immigration at Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, anything at all London-Heathrow, immigration at Toronto Pearson.

Funny, my only complaint about Toronto was that the immigration officials tried hard enough to avoid charging me the work permit fee that it wasted a bunch of our time.

Best experiences though have been Singapore and Kuala Lumpur. Worst experiences have been Houston and JFK NYC. Sea-Tac is ok aside from the body scanners.

I was surprised that just recently on an in-state flight from Spokane to Sea-tac and back, I did not get scanned at all, I only got the metal detector treatment. I had thought that the gawk-at-you-naked scanners were the default everywhere no matter where you were traveling.

I was surprised to find that leaving Tegel in Berlin was easy as can be, short lines, quick trip through the metal detector. The entry process at Sea-Tac was another story though. It took forever. You got grilled, you got the German Shepherd dog sniffing your crotch, and you had to wait for all your bags to be x-rayed. Some of the agents seemed to be behaving in a very rude way, in particular I remember one agent seemingly being a real jerk to some poor old guy who didn't speak English well. I remember thinking how bad an impression of the US that the foreign visitors in line must be forming. I was at that moment embarrassed to be a citizen.

[edit: %s/x-ray/metal detector/]

Sometimes they randomly open and close security lines between scanners and metal detectors. To avoid the hassle, I pick the lines that are obviously headed to a metal detector. When I opt out, I do it firmly but politely, and never had anyone say something except one time a TSA man said "You know this isn't dangerous radiation, right?" I just said "It doesn't matter. I'm opting out." I always take the pat-down in public and they vary a lot in quality.

immigration at Toronto Pearson

I'm kind of scratching my head here, because that doesn't jive with my experiences (and I do have plenty of experience of entering Canada there as a non-Canadian -- in fact, I've done it twice in the past month). Some times of day the lines are a bit longer than others, but I just don't know of anything else that I'd consider to be bad about it.

I hope it's better recently. I've only been through Toronto Pearson twice and it was a royal screw up each time: luggage for my entire plane was sent to the wrong area and nobody knew where it was, it took 3 hours to figure it out thus missing connecting flights for 300 people, harassing immigration officers as we tried to make alternate flight arrangements because it was a no cell phone area (where were we supposed to go?), customs hand searched my bags both times and on and on.

I've since decided not to fly into North America via Toronto from now on it was so bad.

I dearly love my Canadian neighbors so I hope they've since straightened it out.

Meanwhile, a couple years ago I was flying in through Toronto, and had been re-booked (from United to Air Canada) because of a delay. Which meant my bag arrived on a different flight than I did; the customs and security folks were all as nice as could be when I explained the problem, gave me no hassles about it, and got me through the process of claiming the bag and getting it through immigration pretty quickly once it arrived.

I'll agree with 2 of your 3 worst travel experiences only because I haven't experienced one of them personally, but for the other two, I agree 100%

The funny thing is, in CDG, what was bad was the immigration exit control. Entry was a breeze and I was asked exactly zero questions even having presented a non-EU passport.

The problems I've had at CDG were in entry control. 4 or 5 jumbo jets disgorging in-bound passengers at the same time all to be routed through a single immigration officer. Sure there's a ton of booths, but only one officer. I think they've both been mid-afternoon Saturday arrivals.

One time I think I timed it at around 2 and a half hours to get processed. No particular questions, just the usual look at the passport, look at you, stamp off you go. But there were probably a thousand people passing through the control point.

As someone that lives in a neighborhood (in the USA) where leaf blowers are being used constantly all weekend long, I don't see this as a suppression of freedom at all.

> you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example

I don't know Germany but it seems you're suggesting Germany curtails freedom in the name of economic efficiency, but not as much as the US for "national security" and what not.

> it seems you're suggesting Germany curtails freedom in the name of economic efficiency

Not even that. I believe it has to do with Ruhezeit (Quiet Time.) It's just that rattling the bottles is noisy, so it is more like curtailing freedom in the name of neighbors' freedom to have their Ruhe.

the Sunday rule is for the noise

of all the things bothering me about Germany, this is not one of them. More the fact that nearly all shops close at 8pm and everything is closed on sunday.

You're basically describing what it was like for me as a child in Canada in the late 70s and early 80s..

Stores were closed on Sundays, things closed earlier in the evenings.. We survived, we planned ahead..

Now everything is open all the time. Malls are open on Christmas day, even on New Year's Day!

When do people have time to spend time together, to relax, to not be consumers but be people?

I kind of wish stores were still closed on Sundays..

Not everybody cares about sundays or holidays. I hate it when shops close early.

This also means that if you work in a shop you can go home shortly after 8pm and you have a free Sunday. The difference here is that Germans (arguably) respect the time off-work more.

It introduces a different mentality: you have to do something other than shop.

As an international traveler that for some reason ends up arriving in Germany Sundays, let me assure you, it sucks to high heaven that I can't get something to eat or drink easily.

Restaurants, bakeries, gas stations, and everything at airports or train stations is open on sundays in Germany.

Last time I went to Germany was...2009? I grabbed something to go at the airport and hit the road for my destination in central Bavaria. After I checked into my hotel, I hit six entire towns where everything was closed. It was around 6-7pm on a Sunday. Which is a hugely popular eating out time for families in the States. I finally found a Kebab place that was open and stuffed myself to the gills I was so starved. The rest of the week was perfectly fine. The next Sunday? Same thing, only I made sure to have a couple pre-made sandwiches in my hotel room and some breakfast meats I stored in the fridge from breakfast the previous day.

As a traveler, Germany on Sundays simply sucks.

Where are you having these problems?

International travellers tend to arrive by plane or train (as Derbasti says), you can buy something from there. Or from a restaurant.

The only problem you would have is with supermarkets away from the train station or airport.

The Middle of Bavaria. Of course the airport had food. But I was 2 and a half hours away from an airport by autobahn. Every restaurant for dozens of kilometers around was closed.

I asked my hotelier about it and he just shrugged and told me where to get some kebab three towns over.

my mentality is "I want some milk" and "I bet the gas stations are pretty happy about the Ladenöffnungszeitengesetz"

In Japan, there is no such law, and nearly all stores close at 8 PM anyway, many on sundays as well. There are 24/7 convenience stores which are almost exactly like German gas stations minus the gas. The net effect: harldy any difference.

Thanks, I'll bring up that example the next time somebody tries to convince me that we need a law and the market can't regulate itself.

Since you can get milk at the gas station if you forget to stock up the day before: what's the problem?

This bother me as well. However some stores are open until 10pm

In Dublin they open on Sunday, but close at 6pm on weekdays

At least here in Berlin many supermarkets only close at 22 PM or even at midnight. Haven't yet found any that are open on Sunday, though.

8pm? that's late...more or less everything (apart from the supermarkets) shuts in the UK at about 5:30-6:00...

Maybe even simpler: stay, don't fly.

The best solutions would be that all passengers refuse to take the scan.

That's not a solution, unless you mean 'never go anywhere.' TSA is expanding into more modes of transportation [1]. Unchecked, you'd soon see them at every train station, bus terminal and eventually intervals of the interstate.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyo...

Do you happen to know — what happens if you try to decline to enter the full-body-scanners at AMS? Does Schiphol also have a "pat down option" like the TSA offers?

Thinking of other European countries, in the UK, signs at Gatwick say that if you are selected for a full-body scan and decline to use the machine, you will not be allowed to travel.

The use of the full-body scanners at Schiphol is optional. The agents there are not very well-trained about this fact but people do normally succeed in opting out. For example, I succeeded after OHM earlier this month, though I was given more push-back than when opting out in the U.S.

Here is a Dutch government site about the scanners confirming that travelers are allowed to opt out:

http://english.nctv.nl/themes_en/themes-a-z/Security_and_civ...

Leaving your own country is never "simple".

Maybe if you're a loner with no friends or attachments, sure.

Most people have lives. If you've ever seen people struggling to get by in what looks like a bombed out hellhole, remember this. People in Zimbabwe, Lebanon, and even Detroit are suffering, but only because for them the alternative is even worse: Being disconnected.

I prefer Oren's approach: writing about the experience—provoking discussion, even outrage, and eventually change.

I've lived overseas many times, but my simple advice when making life choices is to ask yourself wether you are running _to_ something (an amazing opportunity) or _away_ from something else.

Advocating for change takes stamina and patience. There are many good reasons to leave the US. And, like other nations, the US has some large and seemingly unsolvable problems. I just don't believe that the current state of airport security is immutable.

I'll concede that 9/11 had far-reaching impacts, predicated on our own fears and overreactions. What I won't concede is my home.

> There is an extremely simple solution: leave.

I did exactly that during the second term of Bush Jr. Left for Canada, and haven't been back since. The longer I'm gone, the more I don't want to go back. I miss my guns, but I'd miss my rights more.

My relatives have to experience egregious security checks while coming to visit me, but once they're here, their human rights are respected. Many of them (NRA members, even) are thinking of moving here for good.

Is simple the right answer (and moving abroad is NOT simple)? I did just that with the Bush years - first to London then to Singapore.

Obama convinced me to come back (I know) - but I don't have the same feeling now that he's betrayed us as well.

We have to stay and fight. We need more than one of a hundred of us being as brave as the poster. We need it to be clear that we are going to vote anyone out that keeps this apparatus running unchanged.

Leaving just makes it easy to dismiss us.

It would be quite a wheeze if countries started offering American (and UK) citizens political asylum, and favorable conditions. Long been said that the US is a brain drain for other countries, well, reverse it.

Perhaps that could be a great way for us to protest. If lots of US and UK (Aussies? Kiwis? Canadians?) citizens/subjects applied for political asylum in countries like Russia, would that send a message? At the very least, it would be bloody amusing!!!

Yeah - re-entering the US is feeling more and more like entering an armed compound. I distinctly don't like it.

You're joking. There's nothing simple about leaving a country of which you are a citizen! Besides, if you don't like something in a democracy, you work towards changing it. You don't just up and leave.

"There is an extremely simple solution: leave."

So to be clear you think it's simpler to leave the country rather than go through a machine?

Seems like a defeatist attitude.

Person 1 - "point out problem that should be fixed". Person 2 - "give up".

Not "simple" and certainly not "extremely simple".

Don't leave. Fight. They do it because there is no reaction to their actions. Right there when waiting you should have called your attorney. What I would do: tell them they let me go or I call my attorney who'll shortly come and sue them for violating my constitutional rights.

How is that a solution? If you're about to take a flight, you already spent a bunch of money, which usually means you really want or need to get to your destination.

Leaving doesn't solve anything. You think TSA gives a crap? No, they get paid either way. You think airlines give a crap? No, they already got your money, and now they have an empty seat that they can resell (via the overbooking process).

The real solution is to sue.

I think he meant moving out of the US, not leaving the airport and going home.

If your singular judge of freedom and human rights is the annoyances of the TSA, there is a small chance this enormous decision may solve your concern.

If you have other concerns, you're likely to be sadly disappointed by overt corruption, intolerance, censorship, extreme taxation, or other ways your freedom can be violated.

It's not at all that simple.

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