Hacker News Reader

Comment by Aloisius | Hacker News Reader

Really? What upside is there to having US citizens living outside the US and not paying taxes? They enjoy the benefits of being a US citizen without any of the shared sacrifice.

I say, let them renounce.

View on HN

What benefits do you think we're getting when we live overseas? Having to fill out a lot more tax forms? Getting charged $50/document you need notarized at the embassy because they're the only option available if you're not in the US? And if you do decide to renounce your citizenship, they charge you $450 just to do that!

Trust me, unless you're very well connected, you're not getting any benefits of US citizenship when you live overseas.

Forest for the trees.

I met a triple Dutch/UK/American citizen. Sounded English, self-identified as Dutch, but always travelled on her US passport (she was a world traveller, big time). Why? Because the US actually does things to support its citizens when they travel in foreign lands, whereas everyone else just gets "well, you were stupid, weren't you". She was quite clear on the point that Americans get more assistance than others do, and she wasn't well-connected in the US (being early-mid 20s European)

Wrong. If you aren't on CNN, they won't lift a finger to help you. About 12 years ago my life was in very real danger, my best friend at the time was the British embassador to the country I was in. He told me if I was a British citizen he could help me and told me to go to the Us Embassy, because that's what they are for. When I went I was interrogated by four guys with buzz cuts and shiny shoes who obviously had no clue about what was happening on the ground outside the embassy walls. I refused to talk until they told me what they could do to help. Finally a woman came in who appealed to my patriotic duty, and finally pushed a piece of paper across the table and told me to write down an address in the States where they could ship my body, saying "it is not the policy of the United States Government to help citizens abroad." I was floored, but finally declined her generous offer and took my chances. Luckily it only cost me a few broken ribs, though one of our offices was firebombed, another partner chopped up with a machette in another part of the country.

If you're in trouble abroad, don't hold your breath.

Hell, you can't even walk into embassies any longer for citizen services, you have to make an appointment for all citizen services and even then, they still make you wait for half an hour in an empty waiting room with bullet proof glass before they get around to seeing you.

"I refused to talk until they told me what they could do to help"

That's not exactly the best way to ask for help. You are asking them, not the other way around.

"who appealed to my patriotic duty"

She appealed to you?? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I suspect your experience is not shared by most people, and has more to do with you than with the US embassy.

I can't speak for the experiences of the woman I met, but she was a British lawyer, and she showed me her passports - the US one was replete with stamps, the other two empty. At least that one person was giving a vote of confidence to the US over the UK and the Netherlands. I met her in Vietnam, and she had a fair few third-world countries in her passport, so it's not like she was travelling only in safe areas, either.

I'm not sure what assistance your friend felt the US provided that other countries wouldn't have, but many people would disagree. The US doesn't evacuate citizens as readily as other countries, and when they do, they don't do an overly great job of it, they only take you to a nearby safe place at which point you're on your own again, and they charge you to boot.

Here are some examples of just how great the US assistance was when evacuating citizens from Libya back in 2011:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/02/24/134034173/u-s... http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/23/us_citize...

Not sure, but I believe European countries give some support if you're in trouble abroad (read, some bad 3rd world country)

Maybe American support is better, depending on the region, do citizens get evacuated to US military bases in case of emergency? (Tsunami, etc?)

Like I said above, if you're in the news cycle they might help you, if not, then probably no.

A potential upside would be: They may come back one day. Which they almost certainly won't without their US passport/citizenship.

Err, how do they enjoy benefits if they are living abroad?

Being a US citizen abroad may even come at a "social" price, given the negative PR campaign the US has been running for a very, very long time now.

Yes, I have considered mentioning "No Americans Please" on couchsurfing profile on some days, but eventually decided against it when I felt that an individual traveller may not be responsible for the atrocity that his/her government is.

It does. I know plenty of Americans or ex-Americans around the globe who tell folks they're Canadian.

I'm afraid to say your government is making you intensely unpopular, pretty much everywhere.

I am an American who has lived in Europe (Netherlands and now Switzerland) for over 10 years. I have also traveled all over Europe and Asia without ever having a problem of being an American or apologized for the fact. Nor will I ever put a Maple leaf on my suit case or backpack (Nothing against Canucks BTW)but I am proud of where I come from. If you cannot take criticism from other people from other countries then stay home. I find it a great way to understand other people/cultures.

By this insane logic we should eliminate citizenship for over half the US population, and close our borders to tourists as well.

I find your comment supremely hilarious given that our current president lived as an expat in Indonesia for 4 years as a child.

our current president lived as an expat in Indonesia for 4 years as a child

Yup, it sure is atrocious that he did so without paying his taxes. As a child.

If his mother had been encouraged to renounce her citizenship through these atrocious tax laws he might never have returned to the US, even if he retained his citizenship.

My knee-jerk reaction is to say that would have been a good thing, but in all honesty his replacement would have been just as full of it.

I wonder what her income was? Last I heard, citizens living outside the USA making under ~$90k pay no taxes at all.

This is not true, or kind of true, or kind of complicated.

Under $90K and you pay taxes on your income in another country, and you didn't earn any of it in the states, you can exempt it entirely. Over $90K, you can take the foreign earned income tax exemption AND then deduct your foreign taxes from the rest using a complicated formula. This year I did all my taxes the long way (deducted my Chinese taxes) as I didn't fit the domicile requirement, but the result was the same.

If you live in a high tax country, you usually do not owe to the states; that wouldn't be fair right?

Nobody's saying they shouldn't be able to renounce. The argument is that the circumstances influencing that decision are wrong-headed. The ability to renounce U.S. citizenship is always available.

For what it's worth, what does it cost the United States if a citizen lives abroad? A citizen still has to have paid into the Social Security system to qualify for benefits and employment abroad doesn't count. Do you object to the U.S. being "obligated" to rescue a citizen in the event of unrest in the country where he or she went? If so, at what point is that right given up? What about a tourist who is overseas for a week or a month?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com