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Comment by jmtulloss | Hacker News Reader

I'm not sure there's a lot of weight in the author's argument. The crux of his argument is that you'll eventually need to learn how the framework does what it does. Of course you'll eventually need to do that, but if you didn't have the framework, you'd have to learn all that just to get your app off the ground. It's a premature optimization to not use a framework. The key is to use a well designed framework that makes sense and doesn't get in your way once you have to start digging through its internals.

I do agree on one point though, for small apps that you want to get going quickly, webpy is awesome.

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>> "It's a premature optimization to not use a framework."

If you're in it for the long haul, using a framework may well be a false economy - wasted effort.

The other point is that not using a framework can give you an advantage over your competition. It depends on what is important to your success.

I agree with you on premature optimization. However, once you've learned how the internals work, using that framework doesn't save you much time in the future.

For instance, once you know how databases work, an ORM won't save you that much time -- it'll just shield from the internals, which are what I find interesting.

No, I don't have to learn how highly abstracted ORM code works to get my app off the ground without an ORM. ORMs are much more complex than straight to the metal SQL or writing to a text file.

Don't underestimate the amount of code needed to generalise over all cases a framework needs to support. Not using a framework does not mean to write that same kind of code myself because I only need to generalise over my own cases not everyone elses.

That's the difference between using a simple, straightforward framework and "magic" framework. A well designed framework should expect that its users are going to need to dig through the internals and should design accordingly. It also should not force you to use any particular abstraction if you don't want to. Don't need an ORM? Don't use it.

Sorry, but you are just repeating framework marketing fluff. Have you read what I said about generalisation at all?

Frameworks _must_ generalise further than I do in any particular project because they cover a much wider range of cases. It's not just "magic" frameworks or badly designed frameworks, it's simply the logic of what frameworks are.

Therefore this claim you make is just not true: "but if you didn't have the framework, you'd have to learn all that just to get your app off the ground"

Agreed. Eventually means "not now".

That's the whole point.

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