Agreed but keep in mind the Perl community were black sheep for years because the language is so (admittedly) hairy and ugly oh and also not a "real" programming language because it gained adoption when scripting languages still had a stigma. And the community had its own issues; there were sites like "Matt's Script Archive" distributing horridly insecure code (read through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt's_Script_Archive). But time has a way of changing both communities and how they are seen. Like I said, old is good. Programming communities age like wine. (Which means they improve and improve -- until they peak at which point all bets are off.)