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Comment by artagnon | Hacker News Reader

I see. Can you explain to me how it fixes the power consumption problem? Yes, I know that it needs to reorder instructions to achieve ILP, but isn't that the entire point of a weak architecture? To reduce the memory barriers and weaken the ordering constraints, making it easier to reorder?

What are false register dependencies? And how does a three-address code help in register renaming?

Some reading references would help. I'm currently reading [1].

[1]: http://www.rdrop.com/users/paulmck/scalability/paper/whymb.2...

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The ordering constraints of memory models are foremost between instructions that are executed on different processors. As long as instructions execute on a single processor, everything appears to execute sequentially (even if it doesn't).

The real cost of weak memory models is in software. Programmers that write multithreaded code need to understand the memory models. And few actually do, because these things are not trivial. So you gain a few percent of performance with a weak memory model and at the same time you dramatically restrict the number of programmers who can write correct code. A very bad deal.

Hennessy, Patterson: "Computer Architecture, A Quantitative Approach." is the standard introduction to computer architecture.

What?! Linux provides me memory-barrier primitives: smp_mb(), smp_rmb(), smp_wmb() etc. Even an everyday Linux hacker does not need to understand the peculiarities of each architecture, because the locking peculiarities are all abstracted out in commonly used spinlock_*() interfaces. Any sane compiler-writer would use these primitives too: so, unless you're writing raw architecture-dependent assembly, or are a very hardcore Linux hacker, you do NOT need to understand this.

Linux supports Alpha, which provides the weakest ordering guarantees anyway, so no: any architecture stronger than Alpha puts absolutely no burden on anybody. In practice, weaker ordering constraint means more freedom for Linux.

Sure, if you use a portable set of primitives you only need to understand how and when to use those primitives and only the relaxed memory model they are based on. But even that is a lot to ask for, and too much for many programmers.

And this particular solution only works inside the Linux kernel and only using GCC. It doesn't matter what we think a sane compiler-writer or a sane computer-architect would do. Many times we just have to live with the choices other people made.

I think you got something wrong here. Architectures with strong memory ordering put more burden on the hardware and less on the programmer. That was the point I was trying to make: weak memory ordering is not worth it, because it is better to let the hardware do the hard work and not to burden the programmer with it.

Linux may work well with relaxed memory ordering, but that does not come for free, a lot of people had to understand first, what a relaxed memory model is, etc.

> weak memory ordering is not worth it, because it is better to let the hardware do the hard work and not to burden the programmer with it

My question is very simple: why do we have architectures that reorder aggressively if the performance gain is not worth it? CPU manufacturers do understand that weaker guarantees leads to complexity that must be handled at the software level: so, are they mad? The fact of the matter is that we have been moving away from Lisp machines, CISCs and "human" instruction sets to RISCs, because the kernel/ compiler is in a much better position to make optimization decisions than the hardware (it can see the bigger picture).

These architectures exist, and the infrastructure to handle all this complexity has already been written (yes, all major compilers too [1]). Yes, a lot of people had to study a _lot_ to get us where we are today, and the success of our little iPhone apps stands on the shoulders of those giants.

I seriously don't get what software complexity you're whining about. Complexity is not the exception in Linux; it's the bloody rule! Have you seen the fs/ tree implementing various filesystems? Perhaps the kernel/ tree with the state-of-the-art scheduler? Or even the net/ tree implementing TCP/IP?

I'm not interested in discussing some hypothetical idealized textbook world where everything is simple and elegant: I'm interested in contributing whatever little I can to tomorrow's concurrency infrastructure.

The mammoth question in the room has still not been answered: how does ARM manage significantly lower power consumption? Aggressive reordering (=> weaker guarantees) seems to be part of the answer.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_ordering#Compiler_suppor...

> Are CPU manufacturers mad?

No they are not. But in the early 90ties when most of these decisions were mande, the situation was very different. Processors got twice as fast every two process generations. Shared memory multiprocessors were an exotic niche. But then we hit the power wall, and all of a sudden shared memory multiprocessors became the norm. Today, you can not just wait for a new processor to make your program magically faster, you have to rewrite it. If you asked the same people who took these decisions in the 90ies today, many would (and many actually did so publically) say that they regret this decision.

On, complexity. Yes, software is incredibly complex. That's why you don't want to add even more complexity to it!

> How does ARM manage significantly lower power consumption?

Easy, ARM is targetting the low power market. So they don't need to build the fastest chip. When you try to build the fastest chip, energy efficiency suffers a lot. Once ARM starts to compete with Intel on performance, their power usage will skyrocket.

Memory model and instruction set architecture are orthogonal.

Registers are entirely internal to a processor. They don't have to be replicated or consistent between different cores.

Memory is shared system state. To write correct parallel programs, CPUs need to define how they manage consistency between different processors. x86 does have a more conservative model with stronger consistency than ARM, and this does have (theoretical) scaling consequences-- but Intel has a huge amount of experience making it fast.

The OP was clearly talking about memory barriers in architectures, not memory models in multi-threaded programming. Don't nitpick.

> Memory is shared system state. To write correct parallel programs, CPUs need to define how they manage consistency between different processors. x86 does have a more conservative model with stronger consistency than ARM, and this does have (theoretical) scaling consequences-- but Intel has a huge amount of experience making it fast.

Yeah, but what worries me is not raw throughput scaling; it's power consumption. The mainstream netbooks today: Macbook Air Mid-2012, Chromebook Pixel, and Lenovo X1 Carbon all use the 17W i5-3427U. The MBA Mid-2013 jumped to Haswell early and uses the 15W Core i5-4250U. But we still haven't been able to make a decent quad-core netbook: there's a 15W Core i7-4650U; I believe you can get an MBA 2013 with this as well, but a paltry 1.7 Ghz?

How many years has it been since quad-cores first came out? It looks to me like x86 has stagnated: it doesn't matter how competent Intel is; the architecture seems to have fundamental problems.

Now, I don't fully understand what the ARM A57 is, but the specs look really impressive [1]. Moreover, AMD has confirmed that they will manufacture Opterons in Q1 2014 [2]. I'm not completely sold on ARM or anything, but there is certainly something interesting going on: and we must investigate.

[1]: http://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-a50/cortex-a57...

[2]: http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-unveils-2013j...

A "false" register dependency is a Write-after-read (WAR) [1].

As far as three address code making register renaming easier, I'm not sure what the author had in mind -- isn't `add $5, %rax` essentially a condensed form of `add $5, %rax, %rax` (which is a 3AC)? In fact, 3AC is _more_ general and should make register renaming harder if anything at all.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming

A careful compiler could avoid WARs more easily in 3AC than 2AC (by spacing reuse of registers), so an architecture without renaming could still extract ILP.

It's not a general or optimal solution, though.

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