Hacker News Reader

Comment by tomelders | Hacker News Reader

Well I think this is more to do with Russia thumbing it's nose at the US rather than protecting an individual from tyranny. But fair play to Snowden, it's good news for him. But If I were Snowden, I'd be quietly sneaking out of Russia very soon lest the political winds change and he suddenly finds he's a very valuable pawn in a very dangerous game that he can't win.

View on HN

At the moment I can't think of a more politically stable country for Snowden to be in. Latin American countries are historically fickle when it comes to flip-flopping between pro and anti US governments. Russia seems to be a good choice. Much better than China anyway.

> Much better than China anyway.

Why do you think Russia is a much better choice for him then China?

China is fairly stable politically, but they practice more active censorship and have worse human rights violations compared to Russia today. They have strict visa regulations, a strict national ID system, and they definitely spy on people's e-mails and phone conversations. Skype had to release a special, wiretapped version specifically for China. They lack even a semblance of democracy, and protests are forbidden. Just seems like a very bad fit for Snowden. Russia is at least sort of trying to be a democracy.

I mostly agree but in the end, both countries are a bad fit for Snowden with regards to his activism. Also, China doesn't really have strict visa regulations at all (for example, pretty much anyone can buy a one year visa within a few hours in Hong Kong, no questions asked). On the other hand, it is probably easier to apply for citizenship in Russia and the Russian passport is more convenient for travel. In any case, I don't think Snowden ever really had a choice between Russia and China.

>On the other hand, it is probably easier to apply for citizenship in Russia and the Russian passport is more convenient for travel.

Snowden won't be doing much traveling. The second he shows up in a country that cooperates with the US or boards a flight, he's going to get picked up. I think he's going to be traveling by wheel from now on.

> Skype had to release a special, wiretapped version specifically for China.

I am simultaneously outraged and not in the least surprised. Just curious -- do you have a source for this?

When Internet users in China try to access Skype.com, they are diverted to the TOM-Skype site. While the Chinese version bears the blue Skype logo—and provides services for online phone calls and text chats—it’s a modified version of the program found elsewhere. The surveillance feature in TOM-Skype, which has 96 million users in China, scans messages for specific words and phrases. When the program finds a match, it sends a copy of the offending missive to a TOM-Skype server, along with the account’s username, time and date of transmission, and whether the message was sent or received by the user

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-08/skypes-been-...

If nothing else, he will probably have more luck blending in with the local population, if that is the route he wants to go.

because

https://twitter.com/ChapmanAnna/status/352480982101798913

Is it me, or does anyone else think that the really surreal thing here is not that Anna Chapman "proposed" to Snowden on twitter but that Chapman is even on twitter in the first place?

Why not, she is now a celebrity in Russia that is hosting a TV show and works as a model. As such it would seem natural to me that she is using social media.

What is surreal to me is that a spy turned into a celebrity in the first place.

What, you mean Snowden's not a celebrity?

Or that she's proposing to someone who, last I heard, was still in a committed relationship with someone else. :P

I would expect that China is much more interested in maintaining good relations with America than Russia is.

Probably. But can any one name one trust-able perfect country that would give a Snowden type asylum purely on principle, rather than for political reasons?

I'll be honest, Im struggling to think of one.

He's probably hoping that Iceland offers him asylum. Their bill granting him asylum wasn't denied, it just wasn't allowed to be voted on. So perhaps there's still faint hope for asylum in Iceland.

Germany should, as explained here: http://ind.pn/12ix0rD

But unfortunately it won't :-/

He applied to Germany and was rejected due to "missing requirements". No official statement was given what requirements exactly were missing. Probably, because you have to be on german ground (or very near) to apply. The application itself is declared confidential due to privacy reasons.

Essentially, our government does not want Snowden to enter Germany.

So, it's obvious that it's not politically convenient for Germany (or most other western countries) to grant Snowden asylum, even if they wanted to.

But legally, he doesn't have a very clear-cut case: The 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees which is the legal framework for asylum, defines the criteria as having a well-founded fear of persecution because of one's race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership of a particular social group.

The only category that might fit is "political opinion", but holding a certain political opinion is not a license to commit a crime (which, unambiguously, Snowden is guilty of), especially when laws against the exact same activity is on the books in the countries he's applying to.

Has it not been for the much too heavy-handed treatment of Manning, he couldn't even claim fear of prosecution: getting a fair trial in a court of law isn't prosecution.

Maybe he has a prosecution complex? Are you sure you don't mean prostitution? Procrastination? Prostate exam?

Getting a fair trial in court most certainly involves prosecution:

prosecution n. 1) in criminal law, the government attorney charging and trying the case against a person accused of a crime. 2) a common term for the government's side in a criminal case, as in "the prosecution will present five witnesses" or "the prosecution rests" (completed its case). (See: prosecute, prosecutor)

full url is http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/germany-should-h...

please don't use url obfuscators on hn.

Germany was in on the spying act itself. Hypocrites to suggest they have some type of moral superiority over the US.

Are there any countries that don't spy on people?

All countries spy on their citizens. The real questions are twofold: (1) how reliable is the information that the political decision makers obtain from spying, and (2) how democratic and transparent are the spying operations, how much control do the citizens have over the spying operations.

NSA-like spying is probably the most reliable in history, but how the information gets transformed on the way to decision makers, and what democratic control we have probably leaves a lot to be desired and must improve. Snowden is a hero because his actions have given us incentive and data to improve the world of secret services.

>can any one name one [...] perfect country

No.

He should buy a fake identity and go somewhere else, I'm sure fake passport is easy to get in Russia.

Yeah... about as easy as to meet a wild drunken bear with a balalaika on a Moscow street.

Wow, so you'd have to work pretty hard not to receive a fake passport, then.

Nice strawman there, dude

:-)

May be Vatican.

they only offer asylum to child molesters

My high school history teacher taught us something that politicians know:

"My enemy's enemy is my friend".

I'm sure there's a concise Russian saying for this.

"My friend's friend is my friend" ironically enough.

In Soviet Russia, my friend is my enemy's enemy.

to be fair sneaking out of russia is probably not that hard given the huge land borders of the country.

If you've ever been near a russian land border, you'd know sneaking ain't an option - they're still very much into their 30 foot razor wire fences, and mile wide minefields.

AFAIK, the only borders which aren't demarked as such are those which ramble across incredibly inhospitable desert, which serves the same purpose as razor wire and mines.

I'd suggest you look up Russia and the length of its border on Google Maps and then think again about the feasibility of razor wire fences and mile wide minefields.

I'd suggest you go there and see with your own eyes? I'm not sure what your point is. Feasibility isn't really something the USSR ever factored in.

Do you have any proof for your hilarious claims? In numerous Wikipedia articles about Russias border there was no mention of fences and minefields as current security measures, other than in some conflict zones like Georgia.

Also, all that I see on Google Maps satellite images is farmland without any visible security on both sides of the border.

(for example: https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d8021!2d...)

Apart from having fucking been there, and having photos of such, no. Admittedly, my experiences have been Ukraine/Russia, Belarus/Russia, Kaz/Russia, Latvia/Russia, and in each and every case there's been an exclusion zone. The "farmland" you see is in no-mans land, between security fences, which have mines along their inside faces at a minimum.

Re: the link you've posted, that's one of the aforementioned "so inhospitable it doesn't matter" areas. I've been to Aktobe (just down the road from your link), and it's indescribable how butt-fuck nowhere it is. ~£20 for a salad that wouldn't fill a mouse, but £0.02 for a bottle of vodka and a steak. Oh and there's a bowling alley with DDR. Go figure. Nothing grows out there. 52 C in the summer, -30 C in the winter. An over-land trip by foot through that area is death. Here are two photos of that neck of the woods - welcome to check the EXIF. http://imgur.com/kFvjXHy,B16ieLf

The other outstanding feature of Russian borders is the wreckage of failed crossing attempts - there's always the winning combination of burned out cars in fields surrounding any crossing point, along with a cemetery for those who didn't make it across. They take their border security seriously. Getting a gun pointed at you is standard procedure.

Again, you're more than welcome to argue with someone who's actually been across Russian land borders, on many occasions, but that's your prerogative entirely.

What are you talking about, there is clearly ongoing agricultural activities on both sides of the border!

Ukraine/Russia (farmland): https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d4036!2d...

Belarus/Russia (nothing): https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d3707!2d...

So lets recap: You are unable to produce any proof. Nothing can be seen on satellite imagery. There is no mention of minefields and fences on Wikipedia or any other credible source.

Yeah, as I said, the farmland is within no-mans-land. It's farmed by permit holders who are allowed to go within there - usually subsistence farmers, some (no official figures, but met a few) of whom are stateless and have been trapped in the exclusion zone since glasnost. There are minefields wrapped around the security fences. You're welcome to go for a walk across there, and see what happens.

Again no proof - is it so hard to show me on Google Maps/Earth the fence that supposedly surrounds all of Russia?

> 30 foot razor wire fences, and mile wide minefields.

LOL OMFG!

MILE WIDE !!! MINEFIELDS !!!

May be the confusion is with USA-Mexico border? o_O

No, I knew exactly where I was, each and every time I drove into Russia. Pretty hard to confuse with the USA.

He's already a pawn in a game he can't win. He will have to clear all of his actions with FSB from now on.

That's an over-simplistic view of things and implies that Snowden is perforce the lesser fool. I think it's rather more the reality that Snowden has been quite wise in his planning: he is aware that he is putting Russia in a position where Russia will try its darndest to be on its best behavior in sustaining that "asylum-giving, human-rights protecting" image it has recently gotten.

Russia has an "asylum-giving, human-rights protecting" image? Even if you were to believe that Russia is acting to protect Snowden out of anything but national self-interest -- does refusing to extradite Snowden cancel out Russia's multiplying authoritarian abuses? Pussy Riot? Navalny? Magnitsky? The "Gay Propaganda" bill?

The notion that Russia is beholden to Snowden to protect its image is ludicrous, although given the grandiosity of some of Snowden's statements, I do not hesitate to consider that Snowden himself might believe it.

No, I meant in this limited context Russia has been given the whiteknight image. Hence my use of scare quotes. Sorry if I was unclear.

You can't be serious? wise? You think he planned to be in Russia?

Russia protecting human rights? OMFG

No, he probably did not plan on ending up in Russia, but he has been wise in dealing with the situation he was put in with the very limited number of options he had.

That he is still alive, well, mentally sound, able to freely speak to journalists (and American politicians) at free will -- and finally now "free" to leave the airport is evidence that he's been wise in making decisions.

> Russia protecting human rights? OMFG

That is an irrelevant and uninformed statement with regards to Snowden's situation and his decision to seek asylum in Russia. It was very simply one of the few rational options to pursue in order for him to remain a 'free man', as has been made abundantly clear by now.

Almost as ridiculous as the US protecting human rights.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com