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Comment by smokeyj | Hacker News Reader

> if I'm letting AT&T or Verizon see the encrypted bits (as well as any intermediate carriers and backbone operators), I don't really have a privacy expectation

Why? Because ISPs handle your data, they get to spy on you? If you asked UPS to ship a memory card full of photos, does that give them permission to copy it and use it how they wish?

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Your ISP is already "spying" on you. They subject the bits you send to traffic analysis, they might do deep packet inspection, they record your use of the network, etc.

Also, the government doesn't need a warrant to intercept a UPS package.

Also, the government doesn't need a warrant to intercept a UPS package.

[citation needed]

It's hard* to find credible sources on this on the open web, if you read something like the Silk Road[illegal eBay for drugs, you pay with bitcoin] forums on tor, this is widely reported, and verified by self-proclaimed employees of the companies(ups FedEx). More convincingly vendors universally ship through USPS explicitly because they provide a warrant.

Disclaimers: I am not a customer, and have not used the service, but believe that looking at the security methods used by those actively prosecuted is a decent way to figure out with precautions/security measures work.

*though a quick google of ups open package on warrant will reveal many on dubious forums

When in the possession of UPS, they can just ask UPS to volunteer it. They are allowed to, and will. You gave it away.

The law specifically prevents this for US mail.

I asked if UPS should be allowed to inspect your data. After all, you did hand it to them.

I would expect UPS to inspect and record anything that they would come across in the course of delivering the package. So taking pictures of the outside, recording the destination address, etc. Similarly, given that AT&T can't send your bits without at least temporarily storing or buffering them, and indeed does a lot more inspection of your traffic than that, I don't have any particular expectation of privacy with regards to the bits short of their actually decrypting them.

Interesting, because I would look at the UPS box as the equivalent of the packet headers. Looking inside box or packet would be forbidden if I had my way.

They do this nowadays, do they not? I thought FedEx and UPS X-ray inspected boxes (at least randomly) to look for dangerous materials. They fly planes too, after all.

This is an interesting line of thought.

What if UPS could scan your package and interpret the bits on a memory stick inside? Would that be reasonable? (They could frame it as "we scanned the bits, transferred it over the internet to another memory stick, and copied and delivered those contents".

> Similarly, given that AT&T can't send your bits without at least temporarily storing or buffering them

They're probably buffered on a Microsoft OS. Do they get a copy too? Can I expect my Dell not to be keylogged? It seems like in a "post 9/11 era" we have no expectation to anything short of getting your balls fondled.

> I don't have any particular expectation of privacy with regards to the bits short of their actually decrypting them

None at all? Would you share your network traffic with me?

I don't think it has anything to do with "post 9/11." I think it all has to do with knowing exposure of information to third parties. If you want to keep information private, don't give it to other people.

> If you want to keep information private, don't give it to other people.

Tell this to the people going after Snowden.

I would expect UPS to inspect whatever they wanted to, unless UPS specifically stated they would not.

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