Hacker News Reader

"US...are doing to journalists"

The US government, still maintains a pretty strong protection of journalists. They will go after the leakers themselves, but rarely even attempt to make a journalist reveal a source, let alone prosecute the journalist directly for revealing secret information.

In fact, I say still, but this tendency has actually grown stronger over the last 50 years. It has, in my not-very-researched-opinion, grown stronger due to public pressures and effective civil disobedience. So, that heartens me. All governments screw-up, but some are screwed-up, I still don't think the US is one of the screwed-up - relative to the rest of the world and history - a LOT I wish they would do better.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/06/11/watch_a_reporte...

Recent DOJ opinion (that a court gave warrant for) that an AP author was party to a crime while (/because of) trying to avoid surveillance.

I'm not familiar with this opinion. Do you have a source?

I think parent^ poster was referring to this:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/700577-051413-letter...

A reporter was being investigated for having access to classified information, and the toll records (what number called or was called, and for how long the call lasted) were subpoenaed.

[Via http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/14/4331108/attorney-general-d... ]

> As an outsider, to me it seems that the USA is not a "free" country and I honestly don't see any difference between what the US and Russian governments are doing to journalists and people who disagree with them.

You seem to describe at least five stark differences:

1. If you wanted to travel out of your town - you had to register that fact with the nearest police department.

2. Wanted to travel abroad - had to apply for a passport, which was only issued for a strict number of days and had to be returned upon return.

3. If you were placing a phone call, it would always start with a warning "This call is being monitored. This call is being monitored".

4. The post office would open your parcels and letters.

5. There was book censorship on a massive scale.

Comparing the US today to drastic Soviet republics doesn't really help the conversation - these far-off hypothetical comparisons make it easier for other people to dismiss your argument.

These are not differences, these are similarities. Think about it for a second. Soviets had you register with the police where you were going, because there was no centralised database with that information. Today, the US government achieves exactly same result, but without making you go to the police station to register. Wherever you go, they can access your location on your phone, read your licence plates with street cameras,and do automatic face recognition in many cities. Do you see how this is a similarity, rather than a difference now?

The same with passports - they don't need to hold on to your passports, because they can just block you from going out of the country using a centralised system. Also, they can block you from coming back to US by placing you on a no-fly list, without any explanation - making you take a very long and expensive ship journey.

Telephones - soviets would openly monitor your phone calls. US government does it from hiding, not telling you that you might be wiretapped. Again, different method = same result.

Letters and Parcels - only letters are protected, parcels can be opened at anytime by any postal office worker, if they have a "reasonable" reason to.

Censorship - not done openly in the US, but again - there is no need for it. They keep everything you write saved for future use, so even though you can write whatever you want on your blog, it can still be used to prosecute you. It effectively is censorship in my opinion, even if it's not censorship per se.

They aren't similarities. The fundamental goal is different.

Registering where you're going, warnings that the phone call is being recorded, those things are about FEAR. It's deliberately letting you know that the government is in the driver's seat and you shouldn't even get started with counter-revolutionary thoughts. The information gathering is secondary.

Tiananmen square has probably more than 1 video camera per square foot. That's not to get better footage, it's to send message.

There might be a day when the US is the same, and this might even be a critical moment on the way to that day, but right now the fact that the US is trying to hide it's intel capabilities as opposed to rubbing them in your face makes them categorically different.

Both governments want control. One is more willing to publicize that fact.

I see great similarity.

actually, I think you are incorrect. Comparisons of today versus yesterday with a thought about where we want to be tomorrow.

Velvet glove or iron fist, both are the controlling hand; but it is good to acknowledge that we are not completely in a locked down police state- yet. However, these are the exact canaries we should look for in our own society.

I do find the need to call and notify Fraud Detection in order to have resources while traveling a bit congruous to the Soviet style travel restrictions.

This is a false equivalence. Just the fact that the US government feels compelled to hide a program like PRISM is a strong indication that there is a big difference between the Russian government and the US government (and certainly the Soviet government).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...

There are better and worse slave masters.

But slave master is a slave master still.

If you are working at will for pay, you are not being enslaved. Get a grip.

True only if chattel slavery were the only kind of slavery.

The ruling masters treat those who work "at will for pay" like livestock when the masters demand taxes, threatening violence upon those who withhold the protection money. The livestock are being milked with every paycheck.

We definitely do not live in a system of chattel slavery, but that's only because chattel slavery is so much less efficient (for the masters) than farming those who are willing to repeat the mantra that we "are not being enslaved."

"Chattel slavery"...I'm sorry, but what are you on about?

This comparison doesn't reflect the current state of affairs in the United States.

Yeah, the NSA did some shitty things that circumnavigated loopholes in the Constitution.

But you still don't realize how good you have it. Being in a Western country like the United States is spectacularly better than living conditions on many other entire continents, and sometimes many countries on others.

I agree we should fight the NSA on this. No doubt about this. But you're not convincing everyone of your point by comparing journalists and citizens to "chattel slaves"...come on now.

Journalists are still afford a lot of protections, and incidents like this leak in the United States are still outliers.

The very fact that this leak is an outrage, that we are not desensitized to this news, demonstrates the state of our society. We are afraid of it devolving, but it is presently many tiers above your implied quality of life.

There is no slavery. There is virtually no indentured slavery, named or in practice. We still have a variety of liberties the KGB never expected themselves to have, let alone fought for.

We are not anything like chattel slavery. It weakens your argument to try to argue otherwise.

Circumvented loopholes in the Constitution?

Only insofar as breaking and entering is "circumventing" a "loophole" in the lock on my door.

There is no slavery. There is virtually no indentured slavery, named or in practice.

I take it you're completely unfamiliar with human trafficking and the sex trade.

> I take it you're completely unfamiliar with human trafficking and the sex trade.

Or the prison system, which the 13th specifically makes an exception for..

dylangs1030 said: "We are not anything like chattel slavery. It weakens your argument to try to argue otherwise."

Where is your disagreement? I'll reiterate:

> We definitely do not live in a system of chattel slavery...

I think you are being a bit disingenuous in this response, finish the quote:

> We definitely do not live in a system of chattel slavery, but that's only because chattel slavery is so much less efficient..

This statement makes it sound like you start from the position that we would live in a system of chattel slavery if not for its lack of efficiency then you are comparing what you deem the "current form of slavery" to chattel slavery. You are, to my reading of your whole comment, specifically saying that the slavery you allege we currently labor under is as bad or worse than chattel slavery.

US Commercial Prisons

Indeed. See eg. http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/18/prison-small-business-ent-m... and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/prison-labor_n_2272...

Money quote: "Oddo also said that workers were provided enough water, but the prisoners didn't sip it slowly enough."

Also for a sense of scope http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/07/what-do-prisoner... including this irrelevant but salacious detail: 'In 1997, a California prison put two men in solitary for telling journalists they were ordered to replace "Made in Honduras" labels on garments with "Made in the USA."'

You know, when you guys speak in literal terms of "chattel slavery" and "masters" it becomes very hard to take any point you're making seriously. Get some perspective, or go full Godwin and compare everything to Hitler and the Holocaust.

>You know, when you guys speak in literal terms of "chattel slavery" and "masters" it becomes very hard to take any point you're making seriously.

Very hard for the sheep, you mean.

Did npongratz ninja-edit or did you and the other reply not actually read the comment? The post you are replying to specifically says that it's not talking about "chattel slavery" when it refers to the current system as slavery.

No ninja-edits from me.

Some people need directives from their friendly public institutions as to what slavery is and what can be construed as such.

Some people would also be surprised to know that some colonists referred to themselves as slaves[0]…

[0]: http://youtu.be/3EiSymRrKI4?t=9m22s

Unless basic human needs are free (health, housing, food & water), no one is working "at will".

Well then your definition of slavery includes pretty much every human being throughout history. Freedom doesn't mean getting stuff for free.

Communist much?

I can't see how. Having visited several communist counties, and being married to someone that grew up in one, the previous comment doesn't resemble any of them in the slightest.

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability. That's communism and that's what the parent was talking about.

Now, the countries you visited are probably quite a bit off from the above even though they call themselves communist, but the above most certain is communism. Speaking of visiting, I lived in one for a very long time, does that make me more qualified than you to speak on the subject?

If you're going to stand for something, at the very least identify it properly.

What? Where are you pulling this from?

The only form of arguably existing slavery in the entire United States is the lack of social mobility exacerbated by a lack of education in lower income classes, which becomes both a self-fulfilling prophecy and a cycle.

Other than that - and I note slavery would be a passionate, emphatic term for that, not anything close to a literal one - there is no slavery and there are no slave masters in the United States.

I'm not singling you out, because others are doing this, but it vastly weakens your point to make statements like that. Journalists are allowed to pursue stories and leads aggressively and practice freedom of speech.

Although this is off topic, I'd argue that there are indeed literal slave masters in the United States today, and they are the private prison owners that profit off convict laborers that are forced to work and earn orders of magnitude less wages than minimum wage.

While this is off topic from the NSA story, and the article I'm linking to is from 2009, the conditions for tomato pickers in Florida could be described as slavery with slave masters in the United States. I don't believe things have gotten substantially better for them.

http://boingboing.net/2009/02/26/slavery-among-florid.html

Well, and prisons, where felons go. And most Americans could be convicted of a felony.

I think it was an analogy.

I agree with you that the United States should not be engaging in mass surveillance, and there needs to be reform and checks on the power. And I agree with you that we'll repeat history if we're not wary.

But I don't think this is evidence of the United States "sliding" into a soviet state. I may be wrong in my interpretation of your comment, but that seems to be your overall warning.

I believe that the people of the United States are a good barometer of our democratic health. We might not vote as much as we (arguably) should, but the shock and outrage on such a nearly universal scale illustrates that the government still doesn't have absolute, corrupt power.

The fact that this was hidden and not designed as a deterrant also demonstrates to me that the United States is still, if not consciously, afraid of the power of its people. I can't say that it will last indefinitely, but at the moment, I believe the people are doing a good job of showing that this is not okay and we aren't moving towards people disappearing in the night and needing to be cleared for travel.

I wasn't trying to suggest in my comment that US is slipping into a soviet state.

However, I think it can remain democratic and anti-socialist, but still use surveillance methods against its citizens that would be a Stalin's wet dream.

And you might not be moving towards clearing people for travel - but at the same time, you don't need to. If you have information where everyone is and what everyone is doing, it achieves exact same result, doesn't it? Communist government would keep your passport to stop you from leaving - but nowadays governments can do that even if they let you keep your passport. Boarder agents have access to a central database, and a single note there can stop you from leaving the country forever. US government can effectively exile its own citizens by placing them on the no-fly lists while they are abroad,and obviously no one will ever tell you why you ended up on one. US might not be literally using the same methods Soviets did, but if you think about it, the final results are frighteningly similar. And yes, I am glad that the general populace is NOT happy with the government's actions and that there is an uproar against them. There is still hope. But I find it absolutely sickening how US is presenting itself as a "bastion of freedom" even though it still has places like guantanamo, or where journalists are forbidden from writing about some cases, under the threat of spending several years in prison. This is not how a free country should look like.