Skycraft: Minecraft clone in WebGL
skycraft.io
skycraft.io
The state of the demo is about where Notch was about this time in 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9t3FREAZ-k
I point that out because every month or so someone creates a "voxel"-based terrain generator with basic building and gets branded a "Minecraft clone", as if that's all there is to one of the most abnormally successful indie games of all time.
Unfortunately, it takes a lot more than that just that to make something that's actually fun to play and is comparable to even Minecraft in its pre-alpha incarnations.
And if his success wasn't enough, Notch was comparatively fast at developing Minecraft (at least initially). Within a couple of weeks of the video I linked above, he had water and multiplayer working[1]. Nevertheless, it still took another 2.5 years to get to a 1.0 product, and Mojang is still hacking away at it. Skycraft, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have changed at all since it was last featured on HN[1] two weeks ago.
I don't mean to be a negative Nancy about it: I think it's great to mess around with this stuff and if playing around with a basic Minecraft/Lego-esque builder scratches a gamedev itch for you, that's awesome.
But it seems really premature to start asking for money for it[2], even as a "Kickstarter"-type pledge drive: I'm not sure I'd even consider this a MVP or proof-of-concept yet. Skycraft today is, relatively speaking, the easy part, and really more of a technical demo: there's no game here yet.
Best of luck to the developer, though: I'd love to see if they stick with it and make something really cool. The other ones I've seen all seem to die off shortly after being featured.
[1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEAHqgZU-0o
Thinking about early Minecraft, the creative version became an MVP in my mind when it got multiplayer and a variety of building blocks; the gameplay element there being working with others to create artwork. The survival version became an MVP when it added monsters and an infinitely generating world, which allowed exploration and, well, survival.
But if you look at Skycraft today, it's billed as a "creative voxel adventure game", but there's no adventure. It fails the basic test of what defines a game: there is no gameplay. It needs some sort of basic challenge to overcome, goal to reach, or ruleset by which to reach a win or lose state (to be clear, it doesn't need to be a fully fleshed out concept or demonstration: Pong is an MVP for a tennis game).
Skycraft does, however, demonstrate a very cool block-building generator done in HTML5. That's a very cool tech demo, but it's not yet a proof-of-concept of a game.
To get to an MVP, it needs to add some gameplay elements. If it's supposed to be an adventure game, there needs to be some sort of undertaking or goal to work towards played out through an experience the player has.
But beyond that, if you're going to try to create something that's a new spin on Minecraft and show there's an unmet demand for it, I think you have to demonstrate at least one gameplay element that Minecraft doesn't have. Skycraft doesn't have that yet.
And there's definitely a strong case to be made that there's a demand for games like Minecraft that have a different vision: there's at least a half-dozen "ripoffs", just as many (if not more) games that can directly trace their lineage through Minecraft, and hundreds of mods for Minecraft proper that radically change how the game works.
I almost wonder if you are interested in creating a new take on Minecraft, the easiest way to get to an MVP is to create a mod for it first and worry about the engine after you have something that's fun.
Minecraft-GTA mashup, maybe? That is, voxel-based riff on GTA street-view topic (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5810285). Or maybe iCEnhancer-based Minecraft? I'd pay cash money for that.
EDIT: typo.
Sure about that?
You are actually posting a common class of comment, which I don't much regard, but is unfortunately a formula for lots of karma.
X clone is not nearly as good as Y original for Z reasons. And of course the implied statement, or explicit in this case, that the hackers who made it shouldn't show so much pride or ambition.
As for my scummyness: Didn't Notch do a somewhat similar thing with Infiniminer? Didn't he build on it, make it better/different, and charge for it early? Just because it isn't much more than Minecraft right now, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. And there are some big differences already, like the theme of the world, the block size, and the technology. Hopefully, in time I'll get to show how big an impact all three can have on a game! :)
As for Notch, I couldn't agree more with you: He is a very valuable member of the dev community, and someone I have an incredible respect for.
There was a story the other day on Hacker News about not being able to impress developers[1]: that there's a tendency amongst developers believe whatever someone else did is easy and they could do it in a fraction of the time. Almost every time someone hacks something together that sorta resembles prior art, what I see is a rush to label it a clone of something else that's really successful, as if the work of the really successful product could be cobbled together by anyone who has a couple of hours/weeks/months of free time[2].
All I'm trying to say here is that while this is very cool and the creator should keep at it because this could be a great start to something new and interesting, there's a whole lot more work to do to make a game out of this and let's collectively temper the implications that all Minecraft is is a basic terrain generator.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5807770
[2]: Another recent example where months of work was reduced to "we did it in an hour": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5747418
Even if had been the more forgiving narrative, it still ignores the 6 months the New York times did doing interviews, compiling the photography, and writing the piece itself. The technical part was, comparatively speaking, the part that took the least amount of time on the NY Times's end. You can't replicate Snowfall in an hour, even with Scrollkit's help.
Do not most games get inspiration from earlier games? Aren't quite a few FPS-games quite similar to the ones preceding them? Or RTS-games? Aren't most games iterations, improvements and variations upon an existing foundation that we collectively build on to create ever greater games? :)
There are games that take entirely new paths. But most games, actually most GREAT games are built on foundations of many, many other games, while introducing something new. And that's what I hope Skycraft will do.
That's the only similarity.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5755653
[2] their demos here: http://www.gooengine.com/demos/
- Why not sell it? What do I lose? :) Many people might not buy it now, but some actually have, and that's great! I think this post might also have been an inspiration: https://garrickvanburen.com/archive/your-minimum-viable-prod...
- I had been working on it as a side project for quite some time, and the feedback of friends can only go so far. Getting honest feedback from strangers, both good and bad, is a great motivator to spend even more time on Skycraft. But even more so, the best feedback and motivator is having people actually buy your game. It is incredibly motivating to have someone else than your mom buy your product because they like what they're seeing, and it pushes me to spend more time, knowing I have customers I cannot let down.
- The possibility of doing Skycraft as my summer job. By releasing before summer I could check to see if there was enough interest that I could possibly spend my summer working on Skycraft instead of my usual tech consultancy internship. And there was definitely enough interest! It's not like I've even made enough money to cover even one week of consultancy pay, but the response I have gotten on Skycraft has made this two of the coolest weeks I have ever had, so it was a no-brainer to spend my summer on it.
As for the point about Minecraft's progress vs Skycraft: Notch is a very experienced game programmer, and he has a lot of "tricks up his sleeves". If I remember correctly from his blog, he already had some NPC's from an unfinished game that he could sort of dump in there. And the same is might be true for a lot of other stuff, like collision detection and networking.
As for me: I'm first and foremost a web developer, who has a passion for games, and recently started making them :) So there should really be no surprise Notch was faster, in fact, it would be a real shame if he wasn't!
Oh, and I've had exams for the last two weeks, with the last one finishing today. Expect a lot more coming in the following weeks! :)
I think those are all fair points, and I appreciate you explaining your business model here. If I may make one suggestion: play this up a bit more on the sales page. Knowing that you're a student the funding is going towards being able to let you take a summer off to explore this further significantly changes things: it's less preordering a game (the impression I got when I saw this) and more seed money.
And about the part about no work being done in two weeks: I didn't meant to imply that Notch was the baseline and that you were slacking off, but that Notch is a speed demon in the early stages of game development and can build out whole v.1 systems in a few hours or a few days. So there's some danger in comparing Minecraft at X point in its development and a similar game at a similar point in its development: "Minecraft had these N features 6 months later, so that means this other game is going to be in a similar state in 6 months as well" isn't very likely to turn out to be accurate.
At any rate, what you have here is still cool notwithstanding my negativity, and like I said in my original comment, best of luck to you: can't wait to see where you go with it!
It's worth noting that one can play Minecraft in a browser [0], so Skycraft doesn't have that as an advantage. Yes, Minecraft requires Java, but that won't get me to buy a poor clone of a game I already have and love.
Minecraft isn't written in "native code" either. Have you noticed any problems with this demo? I haven't.
> probably without offline support
Wrong.
> need them to be online to do multiplayer
? Of course you need to be online to do multiplayer...
> redownload the whole thing every time you clear your cache and want to play it again
What cache are you referring to? The normal browser cache won't affect this at all. Sure, you can remove appcache, localstorage, indexeddb data, but why would you? That's the equivalent of uninstalling a game.
> have to deal with browser quirks and the browser adding a level of instability
What does that have to do with you as a user? The developer has chosen to work around such issues because he/she sees benefit to being in the browser.
>? Of course you need to be online to do multiplayer... You know on many desktop games you can host servers without needing any central authority or even your internet online right? Like in Minecraft? Quake? Halo? is the LAN forgotten?
Whereas you have to host a Minecraft server yourself (or host a world on a LAN) in order to play multiplayer, Skycraft doesn't require you to do that. All you have to do is share a link with your friends. In addition, you can "[i]nvite anyone to fly or walk around in your world in spectator-mode", which I optimistically intepret as "walk around in my world without buying the game". (Of course, that's my take on it.)
It's probably because Firefox currently requires fullscreen in order to engage pointer lock.
As I created my sweet tree house and bridge to the other islands in your game, my thoughts of "wow what a capable developer" kept turning into, "Why's a talented person like this working on a clone of someone else's work? Why not invest this energy in an original title and truly shine?".
If you're talented enough to put together a clone, you're talented enough to create an original title with it's own audience. Maybe this is just an exercise but I do hope you iterate this towards something unique.
If anything here's a list of things that I HATE about minecraft and that you can use to differentiate yourself:
- I hate having to harvest blocks. I wish I could just click once and immediately harvest the block. Someone made a browser game like that a while back (forgot the name) and I immediately spent hours building a city because it was so much more intuitive and easy.
- I hate having to collect all the blocks I've broken up by walking over to them. Just give them to me directly.
- I hate having to harvest a block in order to plant it somewhere else. I wish I could just harvest a block type once and then be able to infinitely use copies of that block.
- I hate the closeness that I need to be in order to harvest and plant blocks. I'd love to be able to build something 20 blocks or so away from me rather than have to be close by blocks.
- I hate how Minecraft didn't explain anything in-game. I shouldn't have to rely on an external source to understand a game. Call me stupid but I think this is terrible user experience and is just taking us back to the days of games that required strategy guides or online faqs to beat.
The XBLA version of Minecraft has an in game guide, and many people prefer that version because of it. I think there is an assumption that on the PC and mobile versions of Minecraft players will always have easy access to a browser, but that there would be too much friction to look up info in a browser on a console (requiring you to quit the game or look it up on an external device).
Do not most games get inspiration from earlier games? Aren't quite a few FPS-games quite similar to the ones preceding them? Or RTS-games? Aren't most games iterations, improvements and variations upon an existing foundation that we collectively build on to create ever greater games? :)
About all your points of hatred: I'll note the wish for a "creative mode"! :) And Skycraft will definitely explain more ingame when starting than Minecraft did. Although there was a charm to go online to understand Minecraft, it's not very user-friendly.
Thank you for your great words and great feedback! :)
It's probably mentioning that the open-source and awesome http://voxeljs.com/ has more of the base features of Minecraft than this, and much better performance too. If you're planning on building a Minecraft clone, don't reinvent the wheel!
I contemplated changing to voxeljs when it came out, but Skycraft has some properties that might not fit properly into a generic voxel engine.. the islands, for instance, allow for some unique optimizations. And the small, one-color blocks allow for other optimization again. So it wouldn't be easy to make Skycraft work with voxeljs, or use the optimizations of Skycraft in voxel.js.
Thanks for the "Nice work" though! :)
An edge case, but wanted you to be aware of it.
(Firefox 21.0 + Ubuntu fwiw)
I used Firefox's full screen mode since WebGL's fullsceen mode would exit to normal mode when taking a SS.
http://i.imgur.com/UpNjiBJ.png
you can see how the last 2-3 lines are low contrast and hard to see
But it IS just a tech demo. Changeable settings I would expect by mid-beta at least, but this is probably late alpha.
I started as a WSAD user in 1999, but I turned EDSF in 2004. (And I'll argue the letters should be arranged in "up-down-left-right" pattern, not "up-left-down-right" :p )
I'm more about the speed of things. I played a ton of twitchy 1v1 UT2k4 and had all weapons that would see real use mapped to a key right around my left hand. Also, jump on right click. Jumping was crucial to movement and the throw time for the spacebar had an (to me) noticeable effect.
While we're on the topic, Google Maps has mousewheel zoom backwards, too, and now it has become convention. Jerks.
Screenshot showing the tilt: http://i.imgur.com/tW2h9Dr.png (I un-fullscreened for the screenshot. )
Firefox Nightly 24.0a1 (2013-06-02)
What browser/OS?
The brown block in the foreground here is the first size I could create: http://imgur.com/R3ywZ6T
The light-blue blocks emit light when they are in block form. The illumination looks quite good and seems very reminiscent of the original Minecraft illumination technique, where light "leaks" through holes. Props to that!
Maybe the current threshold is 2 weeks.
http://skycraft.io/skycraft.js HTML.Exploit.Heap-2