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> My (Lebanese) grandmother used to make it by hanging a cloth above the sink, so her solution was merely down the drain.

Which is exactly what companies would do, on an industrial scale, if it weren't illegal. But in a sense what your grandmother does is wrong. Even if we assume that there is no inherent value to healthy oceans and rivers, it robs, in nickles and dimes, fisherman whose catches are affected by the acid in household wastewater. Your grandmother saves a few cents on proper disposal while costing other people a few cents to deal with the problem she created.

1. You assume she's not paying for sewage processing.

2. Acid whey is likely to be completely harmless in small amounts, and is certainly less of an issue than many things going down the drain like soap.

If every household (instead of buying a factory product) is pouring homemade whey down the sink, it's not "in small amounts." It's simply distributing the source of the pollution.

That's still a very small concentration, because it's distributed.

Acid whey is not a pollutant. It's something you don't want high concentrations of, but low concentrations can be literally harmless. And it doesn't build up over time.

Not everything is a tragedy of the commons.

So all the industrial producers should do is get massive amounts of water, mix their acid whey with it, then use that mixture to irrigate the larger area around their plants? Maybe just inject their whey into irrigation systems at the point they pump up their water? (hint: no that is not a solution)

Of course the whey is not the pollutant, it's the acids in it. Low concentrations of anything are harmless.

>Low concentrations of anything are harmless.

That is a true and useless statement. By the same token high concentrations of anything are harmful but nobody is going to call water a pollutant. The question is about why and how something is harmful and whether it builds up. First off, why are you saying the acid is the problem? From my reading, talking about decomposition sapping oxygen, it sounds like it's the sugar and the fact that it's a food. And food isn't a pollutant. You leave it alone, it rots, nobody is harmed unless you dump large amounts of it in one spot. Now let's contrast with an actual pollutant like smoke. A whole lot of people emitting small amounts of smoke does build up, and it lingers. It causes direct harmful effects.

Together with all the other things people pour down their drain, some extra acidic, some extra caustic

If the problem is acidity, throw in some chemical base. But the main issue seems to be that's organic matter that ends up being consumed by bacteria

> It's simply distributing the source of the pollution.

"The solution to pollution is dilution."!

The article implies that whey created at home is substantial less acidic than its industrialized cousin.

And if you still Kant see how this would be a bad thing, look up the Categorical Imperative sometime:

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

Do you mean to argue that the laws that govern industrial food safety and waste disposal ought also to apply to homemade food? (I hope not, since I've been known to grill and eat a medium-rare burger!)

It's reasonable to hold large commercial operations to stricter standards. I doubt that any homemade byproducts are disposed of "properly," but the impact of homemade Greek yogurt must be a tiny fraction of the commercial impact, and I don't think anyone is prepared to regulate what individuals do with milk after they buy it.

> waste disposal

In my case, it's easy: All the 'stuff' from the kitchen or bathrooms flows through big, white plastic pipes to a concrete tank buried in my back yard. Out of the tank are some tube, tile, rock or whatever ways for the water to flow. Done. I never see the stuff again. The water from the tank adds water and plant nutrients to my backyard.

It's all the courtesy of some wonderful 'bugs': Once I had a sore on my foot, applied some Wal-Mart triple antibiotic cream, washed my socks, and a few days later way in the back of my backyard saw 'stuff' bubbling up, stuff I didn't want to see again! Sure: That Wal-Mart stuff was POWERFUL and sterilized my septic tank! Solution? Sure: There's a box, Rid-X or some such, can buy at the grocery store. The box has some dry beads with no odor. So, flush the beads and, presto, the septic tank is working again.

For milk, I've poured old, sour milk down the kitchen sink with no evidence of a problem.

Net, for a lot of disposal, not a problem.

The focus on New York makes it suspect in my mind... NY is going through an era of very extreme environmental activism regarding waste water -- mostly centering around gas fracking.

The interests that fund these groups are rich NYC types who are modern day land barons, buying up defunct farmland and building vast landholdings. Things that make farm business difficult are good for these people.

I didn't think that the article was sensationalist at all. It briefly identified a problem and then discussed solutions used currently, possible future solutions, and interviewed plenty of people in relevant fields. Your grandmother's solution was even addressed (pouring the byproduct into rivers is environmentally harmful).

I literally can't see how you found the article sensationalist. It's practically a textbook example of proper journalism.

first great response covered a few points I wanted to say about the article...

To add more my family is of Greek and Turkish heritage, I live in NYC and make my own yoghurt (super easy)... I also strain a batch. The water that gets strained you can drink, in fact, its actually the same water that remains in yoghurt when you take a deep scoop and leave higher ground yoghurt relative to the remainder.

Yoghurt has a Ph level of around 4.5-5.0 making it low acidic (for comparison orange juice has a ph of 3.5). This article refers to it as acid whey and makes it sound as if its hydrochloric acid. In all honestly there are much more serious problems to the environment than yoghurt water. How about when excess or spoiled OJ is dumped in Florida? By default its ph is an order more acidic so the impact should be too...

Plus yogurt water is drinkable and is actually good for you (proof by induction).

The article states that "the resulting whey is roughly as acidic as orange juice", so the industrial process probably creates more acidic waste than what you make at home (because they're using a different process that results in less dilution, I would assume).

The article specifically explains why acid whey is harmful to the environment - it's decomposition robs streams and rivers of oxygen and kills fish.

The point is that your personal experience making a small amount of yoghurt at home does not make you an expert when it comes to large scale production and the problems resulting from the waste produced.

>>The article states that "the resulting whey is roughly as acidic as orange juice", so the industrial process probably creates more acidic waste than what you make at home (because they're using a different process that results in less dilution, I would assume).

"roughly" is a pretty general term when there is an order difference. The difference between 4.5 and 3 is pretty significant. Unless they actually tested the Ph and publish the number in the article they should not be making claims as "roughly".

>The point is that your personal experience making a small amount of yoghurt at home does not make you an expert when it comes to large scale production and the problems resulting from the waste produced.

>The article specifically explains why acid whey is harmful to the environment - it's decomposition robs streams and rivers of oxygen and kills fish.

yes that is evident.

my point was that there are much more harmful things going into rivers and oceans rather than yoghurt juice.

>so her solution was merely down the drain.

Suppose greek yogurt hadn't taken off in the US & remained a niche product for some health-freaks, then Dannon & Chobani would also throw it down the drain & we'd be none the wiser. The product has taken off in a way no one imagined. At the supermarkets, I see not just athletes but positively obese masses loading up on greek yogurt in some mistaken belief that it can compensate for their other excesses with soda pop & candy. Greek yogurt sells out even after they price it at $6! Clearly, we need an industrial solution to get rid of the byproduct, if we are going to manufacture the damn thing on an industrial scale.

But remember that much of US Greek Yogurt is Greek Yogurt + SUGAR + JAM + FRUIT

=

Candy.

Why is so much of it non-fat?! The 2% milk fat Greek yogurt is so much richer, adds a trivial number of calories, and requires almost no sugar to taste "good".

Because most people are poorly educated about diet. They think fat makes you fat. While fat has higher calories per gram than protein or carbs it also has a high satiety factor.

0%-fat is a lot thicker (in my experience). Nicer to eat with fruit :) Not everything low-fat has to be for health reasons!

Yeah, usually because it's thickened with gelatin. Enjoy your boiled hoof.

Man, you had me worried for a second.

But I just googled '0% fat greek yogurt ingredients' and the top four brands (Fage, Total, Liberté and Chobani) contain only skimmed milk and bacterial cultures.

Same with the brand I use here in Catalonia.

As a diet thing maybe it's bigger in North America. I'm in Canada.

I'm glad, for your sake, that I was wrong here.

Even if it did have gelatin (which it doesn't), why would that be a problem? If, as a society, we're going to kill animals for food, then I'm all for making sure we at least make full use of the animal and let nothing go to waste. Anything less than that would be doing the animal a disservice, don't you think?

No, that's vacuous and "spiritual". The disservice is in killing it.

I doubt you'd be okay with being mugged just because I also sold your shoes and organs.

Another problem with gelatin in your food is that it's empty filler, used only because having already killed the animal it's nearly free. You pay for yogurt and get worthless hoof squeezings.

It's not vacuous nor "spiritual", just pragmatic -- but I respect your opinion that killing animals is wrong on principle. I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise! I just disagree that gelatin is worthless (it's put in food for a reason), and I don't like unnecessary waste. Given that the animals are being killed anyway (which they are), what would you suggest is done with the hooves?

And for the record, as radio4fan said, greek yoghurt doesn't contain gelatin anyway, at least in the UK (where I am).

No, my opinion is that talking about doing the animal a disservice is incredibly rude and misleading. It's been killed. It's gone. The end. Nothing.

Praying over it, or cleaning your plate, is irrelevant to the animal.

If you were being pragmatic you wouldn't have brought up the animal, just money.

Perhaps we just look at these things in different ways -- as an analogy, when I die, I'll be happy to know my organs will be donated to those who need them so that some good can come from my death. Even if I had no knowledge that my organs were being donated, it doesn't change the benefit they'd make to someone in need; likewise, an animal may have no knowledge of the fact it'll be of benefit to people after it dies, but that doesn't change the fact it will be. The manner of my death (and whether some other person is responsible) doesn't change the fact that something good can come of it. That doesn't justify my death, of course, or forgive anyone who may be responsible! If someone had murdered me, they'd still be guilty of murder. But that doesn't mean my organs weren't useful, and money doesn't even come into it.

But I'm not trying to change your mind here, just offering up an alternative perspective.

If I was hit by a car if be happy to know my organs were helping unrelated people. Sure.

But you're postulating the murderer gets my organs.

That's insult to injury. If I was an animal I'd want you to choke on me, not eat your fill and use my remains for odd jobs.

I'm glad you brought that up. Sweetened yogurt is one of the worst pseudo health foods on the market. Chobani's strawberry has 20 gm of sugar (4.76 tsp), and Yoplait is worse at 33 gm (7.86 tsp). That's a butt-load of sugar for such a small container.

Hijacking for personal benefit. I'm a long time cold cereal breakfast addict. I eat the store brand equivalent of Life cereal (has actual sugar!) mostly, along with other things like apple cinnamon cheerios. I don't eat anything with a strange color that dies the milk, contains hardtack marshmallow or has a cartoon character on the box.

In an effort to substitute something more nutritious and dense, I was considering trying the Greek yogurt breakfast approach for a few weeks based on some Cleveland Clinic advice I read about better breakfast habits--I don't have time to make omelettes in the morning.

I'm going to be buying this stuff at the grocery store. What am I looking for? I don't like overly sweetened stuff and usually don't like fruit/yogurt. I'm also looking for the real thing. Not any non-fat crap. May add my own granola if I find it too boring over time. I've seen some that comes with honey. Are there any good "common" brands I should look for beyond reading labels? Sounds like you've looked into this and I would appreciate your and anyone else's advice before I hit the store this weekend.

I've been getting the Mountain's High brand, mostly because it's cheapest ($2.50ish for a decent size container). It may be seen in this (somewhat bewildering) piece of fine art: https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/551892_...

I just get the normal kind, I don't like low-fat or non-fat versions of pretty much anything. I get store brand granola for $2-3 a box to put on it, and will occasionally add a tiny bit of honey if I feel like something faintly sweetened.

My typical breakfast is:

- 1.1 cup of plain greek yogurt (brand doesn't matter for me, I just make sure that it has only milk and bacteria),

- 1 oz of granola (currently it's Pumpkin Flax Granola from Costco),

- 5 oz of fresh berries.

- 1 cup of milk or juice.

Get's me about 500 Cal with 30 g of protein. And I actually like this stuff. But I am big on yogurts, had it for breakfast every day for last 20 years.

Also, I don't really care about fat levels. 0% fat is Ok for me as long as they don't substitute it with some crap.

If your local supermarket has Fage get the "Total Classic". Basically stay away from anything that says 0% or 2%. If you have a Trader Joes nearby their Greek yougurt is good as well. I like granola in mine. I have also put craisins in it. Or add your own fruit at home. My faves are raspberries and strawberries.

At that point, aren't you just adding the sugar back in?

(I'm only justifying my own habits, mind you -- when I'm not eating it with dinner, I have a giant dollop of sour cherry jam that's going in.)

There's way less sugar in fruit than there is in HFCS and/or table sugar laden jam. (ex: 1 tbsp of smuckers has 12g sugar, vs approximately 0.08g of sugar per every 1 actual raspberry.)

If you were to put a small dollop of jam on 1 cup of yogurt, then that'd be comparable to putting 150 actual raspberries in, at which point you'd definitely have more raspberries than yogurt to the point of hilarity/incredulity.

That's an odd way to count. So fruits are bad pseudo health foods too? 8oz of pure, fresh squeezed orange juice has 22 grams of sugar. It wouldn't make sense to say that is "~5 tsp of sugar".

As Dr. Lustig (the "sugar is poison" guy) says, when nature delivers a poison it often provides the antidote. For fruits, the antidote is fiber. Juice removes much of that fiber.

My grandmother had a seizure and was rushed to the hospital. I happened to be in the area and went to see her. When I got there, she was conscious but catatonic. I said hello to her, but she stared straight ahead, unresponsive. Her blood sugar had dropped really low, so the nurse brought in a cup of orange juice. She drank about half of it - maybe 4 oz. The nurse put the cup down, and a few seconds later my grandmother turned, looked at me, and said, "Hi Nick, what are you doing here?" I'm not trying to exaggerate, but it was like someone flipped a switch. I was amazed at how fast the sugar absorbed into her bloodstream. So I guess the point of my story is that you shouldn't underestimate the power of the sugar in an 8 oz. glass of orange juice.

Fruit juice is not the best example of a health food. There's as much sugar in most fruit juices than there is in an equal volume of Coke [1]. When we were kids, my brother had to get caps put on all his teeth because he drank too much apple juice, and even though we brushed 2x a day, the sugar rotted his teeth. Plain fruit is better because it has more fiber and about half the sugar in a serving than the juice [2].

[1] http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-673229.html

[2] http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/07/calorie-counter-fruit-...

fruit juice is indeed not very healthy, because of its enormous sugar content. you'd probably never eat for a single meal the number of oranges that go into a single orange juice glass.

I absolutely hate sweet food. I thought, for the longest time, that I hated yogurt, too.

When I discovered real, nonsweetened yogurt, I was mad that I'd been missing out all these years. There's so damn much of the sugared crap in the yogurt aisle that I never even realized that it didn't taste like that normally.

> some mistaken belief that it can compensate for their other excesses with soda pop & candy

I had no idea that the obesity epidemic could be solved by taking away soda pop and candy! Surely some nutritionist here is wondering, "why didn't I think of that?!"

Every nutritionist in the world suggests not consuming soda and candy. The problem is people don't listen.

I think that it's all a question of scale. The amount of whey produced by your grandmother is exponentially less than that produced by Chobani or Dannon. So, while she could just pour it down the drain, at industrial scale, that just isn't possible.

But, you do bring up a good point - what does the rest of the world do with their excess acidic whey? Is it produced anywhere else in the world at industrial scales?

Your Lebanese grandmother did not pour a few million gallons down the drain.

No, but a few million Lebanese grandmothers did. Which seems like too low a number...

I read the article, and saw something completely different. Whey is a potentially valuable byproduct, too nutritious to just throw away and they can't do it legally anyway. So these were some of the ways that the whey was being used. The food industry looking for ways to use the byproducts of an industrial process isn't exactly new, but it's also not something outside the industry thinks about.

Modern Farmer is doing some interesting work in the intersection between farming and how we're re-conceptualizing food in the last decade.

My wife works for Agriculture Extension in our state, so she is a bit in the know here. She says Greek Yogurt is the only growth dairy has seen in over 20 years. Because of that, everyone is going to (or already has) start making it. As far as being New York centric, I would venture to guess it would be because a lot of the research this is based on, is coming out of Cornell, which is the Land Grant institution in New York (Land Grants run extension).