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What a predictable top comment for a Hacker News thread. :(

A government website showcases a design that is leaps and bounds ahead of any other government site we can think of, and HN's top comment casually dismisses it.

To rewrite something you said: "This is the perfect example of everything wrong with [HN comments]."

I, for one, am floored that someone in city government was able to rise above the bureaucracy and ship something truly useful and delightful for citizens. I would love nothing more than to meet the people involved and buy them a pint. Well done, guys.

I'm afraid HN is getting the way Slashdot went: sarcastic über-negativity on each and every post, often by people with little or no skin in the game and no experience as real developer/entrepreneur. After all, if you have time to post early on a high-traffic site like this, you're probably not very busy building new things. I say this while being fully conscious that I'm exactly one of these time-wasting untalented hacks.

The first few months I was reading HN comments (which wasn't that long ago, just about two years, but feels like ages), I was actually feeling pumped-up and motivated to start my own biz (although I now know I'm pretty hopeless at it). These days, it feels like HN is just full of well-spoken and highly-educated stop energy.

It's a shame you're being downvoted, hopefully constructive feed back will eventually bubble to the top. There was a similar submission yesterday where this occurred.

Clearly there are a group of elite web designers, UI and UX specialists that parade this site, who, unsurprisingly, have empty profiles. How else are we supposed to see their portfolio of exceptional work so we know what to aspire to?

Art/Creative Directors often have some of the worst, if existent at all, portfolios. Execution has nothing to do with having an eye for it.

This layout might look more modern than the 1998 frames we were expecting, but from a usability standpoint, it's still weak. If your average government site has a lefthand sidebar that contains all of the navigation, that in itself is better than making your user move their eyes all over the page, forcing them to click on a button to even see the rest of the options available. On top of that, they don't look like links (they don't even have a hover state), which is frustrating enough for me, but could be entirely too confusing for average users.

Additionally, that large image is useless; the "View more services" should be visible without needing to click into it.

This is a fallacy. If you need to show something to prove or give an opinion or a reason about 2+2=4 then we will have troubles to discuss on anything.

You cannot use argumentum ad hominem to this point. If people has to shown their portfolios or other stuff to prove their skillmanship you're only wasting time and finding on the wrong place to prove your points, since those designs may not apply or be used as a good example to counterattack the main point here.

We do have troubles discussing things.

Unfortunately, the world is so complicated that we can't make an informed decision based on speech/writing alone, and verification of achievements is one of the easiest and most accurate ways to judge credibility.

We should give opinions based on evidence, proven evidence. The rest are just, personal viewpoints who doesn't care what you prove. I try always to avoid these discussions, but sometimes i feel is a bit unfair to bring up the "show me your X card, sir" to talk about something.

Well, it is actually an interesting idea. I personally am not a designer yet I feel ok offering my criticism of a design.

Since designers are supposed to design for non designers, your criticism is vital to the process.

On a recent story about AngularJS, one of the top comments was someone noting that they think poorly of AngularJS because the website for the project "looks like a Bootstrap site".

To which I say: Who gives a shit.

I say the same here. The site looks fantastic, and I would love if my local municipality had something as clean and functional, whether or not it looks like a wordpress theme.

Too many want to be world weary. They want to announce that they can see under the covers and thus are above it. I don't get it.

To agree with you I have to agree that this site is "leaps and bounds ahead of any other government site we can think of", and that it is "truly useful and delightful for citizens" over and above previous sites and or designs.

I'm very sorry, but I don't agree with either.

Is that OK with you? Am I allowed to have my own opinion and express it? Am I some sort of idiot because I don't agree? Am I expected to say nothing?

I would say why, but clearly you would find it predictable and all :(

Whole heartedly agree. So dissapointed to see people picking holes in the design, when actually the site's functionality works extremely well and is far ahead of almost any other comparable local authority website.

I'd agree with you on the slider not being a good use of space. But I'd argue that it does get some other things right which a lot of uk government sites fail on.

In particular the simple presentation of the primary services people access with the option to expand out for other less frequently used ones. This is a huge improvement on, for example http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/home.htm

I have to use that site quite regularly and pretty much the only way to get anything is googling site:www.lambeth.gov.uk with the service you're looking for.

Agree accessibility could be an issue although looking at the fairly prominent accessibility section at the top of the site, it does look like they've at least considered it. I don't know enough about accessibility to evaluate whether what they've done is sufficient.

Perhaps holding this up as how they "should" be designed is a step too far but to me it looks like a step in the right direction.

Giving it a cursory look [1] it seems they score pretty ok on accessibility:

They use a proper content structure with appropriate headline levels, buttons are large enough for people that can't use a mouse properly. The contrast in the default color scheme looks fine and they provide a high-contrast color scheme. They even offer to switch the font to accomodate dyslexics, but fail to include a dyslexic font[2]. The layout falls apart a little if you use the high contrast scheme with large letter-spacing and comic sans, but it still includes all functions, so that's forgiven.

The fact they don't provide alt-tags for all images is totally fine: The images are just visual add-ons to the links that are provided directly underneath the images, so any screen reader will pick up the links and not the images. Quite to the contrary, providing empty alt-tags as they do will hide the images from screen reader and will remove mental clutter. The "always add alt-tags" mantra is - as so many matras in the web design world - wrong when taken at face value.

Forms are designed well with proper placeholders and labels.

Now, there's much more to accessibility than this - for example the writing style and text complexity, but it's obvious they have given accessibility more than a passing thought and taken it into consideration. One thing is certain however: Accessibility is not a roadblock for good design.

[1] Please note that this is only the 10-minute-tick-the-most-important-boxes check :)

[2] maybe for legal reasons, including dyslexic fonts is a legal nightmare with two warring factions

Great post.

I will note that the non-uniform letterforms of Comic Sans have made it a popular typeface for dyslexics, which is likely why it's a choice.[1][2][3]

[1]http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/about-dyslexia/further-informa... [2]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11582548 [3]http://www.dyslexia.ie/information/computers-and-technology/...

Thanks for posting this - I'm aware of that, but wanted to note that they don't offer a "real" dyslexic font. I should have been more clear about that.

I hadn't heard of the dyslexic font situation. After a little searching, I found: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121004/18530620612/font-...

I assume that's the legal situation to which you are referring.

Yes. I haven't been following the outcome, so that might be resolved but my latest info bit is that it's currently a minefield. Comic Sans is a viable alternative for most use cases though.

I think that's the first time in recorded history that anyone has said that Comic Sans is a viable alternative...:)

>This is the perfect example of everything wrong with modern web design.

This seems to be quite the hyperbole. Sure, it might over use some modern design trends, but there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Also, what is wrong with themes on themeforest? Many are built with great design in mind.

More than anything govt. sites are not friendly, don't organize their content well, and do a horrible job at engaging their users. I would say this site does all of three, making it at least a decently designed and well built site.

"Also, what is wrong with themes on themeforest? Many are built with great design in mind."

That's the issue with cheap templates. They are designed and built by web people with no connection to your organization. You then buy this template and shoehorn your own content, and hopefully goals into a template without ever thinking about what your site should look or work like. Templates serve a purpose at the extreme low end of the market but soon every organization should graduate to a process that does not begin with a template.

Would you use a template as the basis for your entire software project? Would you use a template for your business plan? Certainly there's a case to be made for both, but neither is ideal for anyone seeking success.

When you start a Rails or Django project you're using a template. When you use Bootstrap you're using a template. When you use the business model canvass you're using a template. And forget cheap, those templates are free.

People use templates in successful projects all the time. Don't generalize. I'm sure a lot of sites have found success in their niche using themeforest as well.

If you want to compare apples with apples then it would be better to compare Bootstrap or Rails with some of the "framework" themes (like Genesis) that exist for platforms like WordPress. They stop short of design and mostly provide the designer and developer with a common language.

A complete theme usually has a lot more than just tools, conventions and code examples. It's a complete design, and content implementation, all you have to do is stick in your logo and copy and you're done. Not exactly the same process as using a framework.

Although I also dislike frameworks (Bootstrap high on that list) for the same reasons (shoehorning is encouraged) I don't think it's an appropriate comparison.

> You then buy this template and shoehorn your own content, and hopefully goals into a template without ever thinking about what your site should look or work like.

Templates work fine if you simply reverse the order here: think carefully about how you want the site to look and work, then look to see if there is a template that is reasonably close. If there is, it's a huge savings in cost and time--even if you have to alter the template a bit. Graphic design and front-end coding are expensive by the hour.

Templates are tool. They can be used or abused. Used well, they can save you weeks of work.

There is a lot of convergence in website goals. Blogs aren't that different from each other, portfolios aren't that different from each other. Sure, you'll take on more constraints than building your own from scratch, but you also might be a lot faster, which often outweighs everything.

I've used templates to great effect many a time.

Great design is significantly more than good/trendy aesthetics.

I don't think UX and IA can be minimized and made generic enough to fit into a one-size-fits-all theme. You still need to be thoughtful in how you design and display information.

> Many are built with great design in mind.

I've gotta disagree simply because a lot of the people posting to ThemeForest are just trying to make a buck on their hobby - so many of those themes look exactly alike; they're not spending significant time thinking about the usability of their designs and just applying trends. TemplateMonster back-in-the-day was more reminiscent of designers with experience creating unique enough templates to be modified/used for multiple types of purposes.

couldn't disagree more. Underneath the "frosting" of the design surface of this site is one of the best user experiences I've had on a government website in a long long time. As someone who is in the middle of building out a large government site at the moment I'm keenly aware of how hard it must have been to bring the Manchester council team along with their design and ux decisions. For me this is the real triumph of this site.

Well done folks.

I agree. It is easy to complain about how boostrappy or wordpress like the theme is, but it is immaterial the source of the design inspiration. The most import thing is, that it works and is functional. Try going to the birmingham.gov.uk or london.gov.uk or any of the boroughs in London and see how much of an improvement this approach actually is.

I just started as a BA at Westminster, currently working on customer journeys and user stories, redesigned website and content to follow early next year....watch this space...!

What is a BA?

Bachelor of Arts.

Business Analyst

I think you over reacted and misjudged a lot on this and I completely disagree with you.

They've used blue on links, clearly the best color for color disability and the contrast is really nice on the homepage and other sections. I do not foresee any kind of eyesight problems.

The rest of the stuff you mention as a catastrophe are really just minor problems. They can be solved without problems. Most of the images aren't objects on the document, they're just background images on span elements, so no trauma for the disabled.

Buttons, if rounded, better studies has shown, and this website is not using parallax, so what's the point of attacking designers who clearly didn't abused of the latests and hottest webdesign techniques.

Not quite sure what your point is? Government websites are not there to show of designers ability, they should be simple.

I'd argue that almost no sites should exist to show off designers' skills. The trick is taking various (often competing) requirements and producing a site that seems simple.

I'd argue that being simple and effective to use is a show off of the designers skills. Whenever I bring a designer on a project, I bring her in to structure and lay out all the information and functions that is available on a site, to guide the readers eye to the important function while not forgetting about the nitty gritty details.

I'm always and each time amazed how much of a difference to reading and comprehension a well designed page makes over a jumbled mess. That's what designers are good at and that's the value they bring - not the fancy looking bling* that most people associate with designers.

Isn't that website simple? Jesus, check this one http://www.bcn.cat/ is from Barcelona city, you will understand when something was designed simple and when was made like the rest of the 99%.

That website is simpler than the rest, tell me how you will reduce the noise.

> I'm a developer and I am struggling to understand the reasoning behind that slider.

If you mean the 3 panel graphics then it seems pretty obvious. They want to focus attention on a small number of important things. They can change this slider once a month to give prominence to different things throughout the year.

Whats wrong with a $45 wordpress theme ;-P

> Web Developer common sense rule #1 — Always put alt tags on images, especially when they're being used as icons in content sections, wow.

Actually, no. The icons are correctly labeled with text and many of the images are CSS background images (which can't have ALT text anyway.) In their usage, a screen reader would sound out the text on screen, providing a user with enough information to make a browsing decision.

Even if the images were inline rather than applied in the background, you need to use ALT decisively. ALT text that repeats what is already a link label can be more redundant than helpful.

More importantly they've got a section specifically for accessibility.

Well done.

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/accessibility/settings

If your link to the accessibility settings is in such a tiny font size there is a fair chance those that need it won't see it.

>>This is the perfect example of everything wrong with modern web design. Instead of thinking, "What can we NOT add to this site design" designers seem to be thinking, "How many full screen images, rounded corners, parallax effects, CSS animations, Javascript effects and large amounts of custom fonts can we cram into this site?"

I think this site from Milwaukee's police department takes the cake: http://www.milwaukeepolicenews.com

(Although that's only the news page. The actual gov site for the police department is much plainer.)

I can see why the lady at the bottom right was rolling her eyes.

I completely agree with this one. I do design and code and it really pisses me off how pages are designed (I design ugly websites, and pretty ones as well, but whoever I design for, it works).

Everything looks like a theme now-days, and oversized as well because it's responsive. Some stuff is just useless and every designer keeps saying ' less is more, less is more ' while designing stuff like this? Less IS more when you know how to use it, when to use it, and what it really means.

I would give this website 2/10 for their effort.

I hope you're making an ironic point about what passes as insightful here on news.ycombinator. Otherwise your head is so far up your ass it's starting to come out your mouth.

If accessibility is the issue, the standard for websites really ought to change.

How? Well, we don't require that stairs be accessible for everyone. We require a ramp or an elevator in addition to the stairs.

Perhaps the standards for web accessibility should change so that websites will have an easily accessible alternative design for those who need it and the standard design for everyone else.

> but the Manchester City Council website looks like a $45 Wordpress theme off of Themeforest

Yes, the only thing better than inexpensive availability would be free and open availability.

Add to it being on wordpress, and this could potentially make future implementations cheap and easy.

Why don't governments design sites with multiple themes for multiple targets? And speaking of being accessible ... why do their sites have so much small text? No, I think government agencies could make better use of fonts and sizes, at least.

> Why don't governments design sites with multiple themes for multiple targets?

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/accessibility/settings

Really though, the chances that tertiary government - like the ones who manage a city - keep a website designer on staff seem low. What would he do the other 360 days of the year? If they want to buy something like that, chances are it has to go out to tender. IT departments in non-IT firms are likely to be predominant busy with dealing with network issues, making computers run far too slowly, and issuing new mice and keyboards.

Heck, their CMS is certainly government procurement service. They advertise the fact on their site:

http://jadu.net/gcloud/cloudstore

The real question is why a bunch of councils don't stick their money together and lock a bunch of programmers up in a basement to make cool tools for them.... That would seem the obvious thing to do - what are the odds that your council has a demand that no other council has?

Would you want to be the person working for that organisation?

Working for one council means working for a committee, working for multiple is probably working for a committee of committees.

Decentralisation and out-sourcing are central words for the public society. The idea of bringing this in-house and sharing between other councils is probably a couple of pay-grades above the person on the comms team who is in charge of the website. The person in charge of the website may not even be a "technical" person and have time to think of all the cool possibilities.

MySociety make fixmystreet for councils (the open source fixmystreet.com but hooked into councils existing systems + extra reporting), I'm sure there are plenty of private companies making these things and selling them.

"The images don't even have alt tags on them, Web Developer common sense rule #1 — Always put alt tags on images" I think you mean 'alt attribute'. Alternative text is provided via an attribute on an img's tag, not as a tag in its own right.

It has been pointed out, in these comments, that the design is quite similar to that of http://www.kashflow.com (though the markup is quite different)

It's quite similar to * a lot * of other sites.

> I'm not a designer, I'm a developer and I am struggling to understand the reasoning behind that slider.

I'm not a designer either, but I know that what you seem to call a "slider" is a "carousel".

Next thing you know it starts showing banners, pop-ups and sending you emails with the "tax offers".