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Comment by mindcrime | Hacker News Reader

You guys were YC11 and nobody suggested that you read The Four Steps to the Epiphany??? Seriously, half the readers of HN could tell you that you don't do a big PR launch before establishing product/market fit. Are you trying to be Webvan 2.0?

Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh, but that just seems so weird to think that anybody would make that mistake in this day and age. This lesson has been learned and shared and reshared and written about and blogged about and discussed to death.

Nonetheless, you guys did a lot of hard work and it sucks to have things not go well. Sorry to hear, and I hope things improve down the road.

Edit: Sorry of this came off as overly harsh. I'm not trying to be mean-spirited here. I'm just a little surprised by the details of the story, given the context. And I don't mean to suggest that I'm better than anybody or know better, etc. I'm just some nobody who haven't proven anything yet, so feel free to ignore me.

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This is such a classic HN reply to a failed launch, I feel like it needs to be an option on the menu bar to save us all time.

link | parent | flag | you-suck-but-good-luck

Don't you think people should accept both positive and negetive feedback.

Yes, You are right.

I didn't say anything about anybody sucking. I just find it surprising that this particular scenario is still happening, that's all.

> I didn't say anything about anybody sucking.

Yes, you did. Here's a list:

> Seriously, half the readers of HN could tell you

> Are you trying to be Webvan 2.0?

> Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh

> that just seems so weird to think that anybody would make that mistake in this day and age

You may not believe that's what you said, but that doesn't actually change that you said it.

Well, you can interpret things however you want. This whole thread has gotten beyond stupid, and I have nothing else to say here.

My favorite line from 'The Bourne Ultimatum' is "Don't judge a live operation from an armchair!". Don't be so quick to judge or think following a text book is going to lead you to the promised land. Richard Branson, Larry and Sergey, warren buffet, Mark Zuckerberg, Evan Williams, Ted Turner did not read "The Four Steps to Epiphany" so let's stop with the common knowledge line.

"Don't judge a live operation from an armchair!".

Dude, you're preaching to the choir here. I'm not judging anybody, just expressing some surprise.

Don't be so quick to judge or think following a text book is going to lead you to the promised land

I never said that following a textbook would lead anybody to the promised land. Please don't put words into my mouth. If you disagree with what I actually said, fine, disagree, it's your right. But attacking something I never said isn't benefiting anybody.

Richard Branson, Larry and Sergey, warren buffet, Mark Zuckerberg, Evan Williams, Ted Turner did not read "The Four Steps to Epiphany" so let's stop with the common knowledge line.

I didn't say they did, and that statement has nothing to do with this discussion. In 2011+, among this crowd (HN people, people who have gone through YC, etc.) it sure seems to be common knowledge. And if it's not as common as I thought, then I guess that is exactly what surprises me, because it dang sure seems like common knowledge.

I would guess you've been through it many times or are lucky enough to have a great intuition with this. I've personally not been so lucky.

I can say that in my experience reading Four Steps or The Lean Startup and actually doing a startup are completely different things. I thought I had the whole lean startup thing down, but I've messed up so many times. And it's not a case of "now I've learned my lesson" either. I've had great experiences with sticking to lean, and then afterwards I've slipped up again. For me it seems to be a case of waves of being good, and not so good. Over time I'm definitely getting better.

Intuition? Hell no, before reading TFSTTE, I would have done exactly the same thing. It's only because I was fortunate enough to be exposed to that that I now know better.

I can say that in my experience reading Four Steps or The Lean Startup and actually doing a startup are completely different things.

Absolutely, and I don't mean to suggest otherwise. Note that I didn't say "OMG, you guys suck, if you'd just read this book you'd all be millionaires and dining with Zuckerberg now". But the whole "Do a big-bang PR launch before you've proven anything" is textbook "how to fail as a startup", if you believe that @sgblank's stuff is valid.

I thought I had the whole lean startup thing down, but I've messed up so many times.

Tell me about it, we learn more everyday. I'm not saying any of this is easy, mind you. It's just that this particular example jumped out at me for being such an egregious example of such a common and well-cited mistake, that it's a little hard to believe.

And hey, I haven't proven anything yet, so nobody should feel any particular reason to care about my opinion. I'm just a guy who's a bit drunk, sitting in front of the computer a little bit bored before bedtime, and blabbing about stuff.

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