With that in mind, we keep a certain amount of "operating expensed" liquid, since we both tend to work in smaller companies than can go sour rather fast. Paying out that check to the IRS sucked up the majority of those liquid funds. If you've read some of my posts in the past (not that I'd expect you to have done so...), you'd see that I'm on the upper end of the age scale here, have been around a while, and managed to enjoy a run through the dot-com 90's. So, I do not have the finances of a single 20-something college graduate.
I looked at this IRS payment as an investment. I was very highly confident that I would get my money back (and then some), so that was the easiest path, all things considered. Had I been more in doubt I would have certainly kept the money, reasoning that I'd rather have them pry it away from me if it came to that.
I didn't mean for my comment to sound like I just go around writing 6 figure checks as the path of least resistance.
More to the point the thing that causes stress is the fear of the unknown. The fear of "what if" where you don't know the outcome. One of the ways I have found to at least reduce a bit that stress is to come to the acceptance that the outcome even worse case scenario can be dealt with or how it will be dealt with which seems to work for me as a mind game.
Add: Also the parent's wife may have a different financial upbringing and might have a case of ptsd because of family history or other factors.
If you think it's a brag, I apologize, I try to offer as much insight and perspective from my "learnings the hard way" as I can.
Besides, if you think about it, even if you figure the IRS is greedy and only motivated by money, the biggest returns for them are catching fraudulent millionaires dodging tens or hundreds of thousands, rather than slapping you with a $100 fine over a $2.38 mistake.
Like I said, it was an error on our part. I don't disagree that at all. I have absolutely no qualms in paying what I owed. But I wouldn't have paid a dollar over the amount owed if they had adequate systems in place to catch my typos and immediately notified me to fix it. But a lack of proper processes on their part meant it took them 2+ years to find an error and now I owe them taxes + interest. Whether I would've made or lost money if I had invested in mutual funds, stock market, or horse races is not the question. The problem is by making a mistake, I am now at their mercy for an unspecified length of time.
Also the error could not have been avoided by us. My wife was in school and we took the American Opportunity Tax Credit since it was higher than Lifetime Learning Credit. But turns out my wife's estranged stepdad had years ago, unbeknownst to my wife, taken Hope Credit for her by claiming her as a dependent. Long story short, we owed some taxes + interest after filing a correction.
I mean, really: how is paying 4% APR on a loan[1] you got from the government "at their mercy?". It's not even a bad rate for an unsecured loan! People routinely pay much higher for car loans, and even now mortgages (which are at historic lows) are only a little better.
[1] Which is what this is. You walked around with extra money in the bank for three years, albeit accidentally. Why doesn't that fact figure in your analysis?
(FWIW: if the stepdad was really "estranged" and still claiming your wife as a dependent, then you should have been able to fight that. That's not how tax law works. My guess is that they weren't actually "estranged" three years ago, and she probably did meet the definition of a dependent. Again, that's your mistake if so.)
Because I didn't want the loan. What's not to understand. I wouldn't have had a problem paying the full amount if they had told me sooner. Also it was over 6% because it was 2+ years and not 3.
> My guess is that they weren't actually "estranged" three years ago, and she probably did meet the definition of a dependent.
I'm certain it met the definition but not the spirit. It wasn't worth having us fight or prolong this. As it is it took 8 months, four registered letters, 20+ hours on the phone, and numerous meetings with my tax attorney to get this resolved. IRS didn't just say "Cannot qualify for Hope Credit because lifetime limit was reached." They outright denied it and asked for the full amount with interest immediately. If this was a business deduction like restaurant bill, we would've paid it immediately. But denying education credit without any reason why? We had no idea her 4 years credit was already used. We had to contact her school, Sallie Mae, review all of our past records etc. and finally our accountant suggested that maybe when she was younger, someone claimed her.
This 2 year $500 'unsecured loan' at a wonderful interest rate cost me easily over $3k and delayed my citizenship process by 8+ months. Did you know if IRS has an open claim against you, you cannot file for citizenship even if you're married to a citizen, lived in US for 13 years and have a green card? I'm not angry. I'm just saying their systems and processes leave much to be desired.
You had the use of the money in the meantime, which has a value. As for the delay in your citizenship, IRS does not make that rule, it's written into the immigration law.
The one item that strikes me is the bit about the citizenship. And I can clearly see how that would be a huge disruption. But frankly I'd blame an unjust INS policy here. I don't see how you're pinning this on the IRS for correctly (if inefficiently) enforcing its tax code.
I'm not saying the citizenship was IRS fault. I said a $500 'loan' that I never asked for, had no intention of 'stealing', had no way to know was pending, ended up causing months of paperwork, hassles, and undue stress. It is appalling that people expect me to treat this like a wonderful tax refund instead of what it was - absolute waste of productive time.
All of this could've been avoided by a single rule in IRS tax processing system that auto-sends a letter or email saying 'Our records show X yrs of Y lifetime credit have already been claimed. Please refile.' And I'm certain that I'm not the only person who had to go through a similar thing.
Downvoted for egregious politicking. Let's skip the drive-by attacks on FOX and MSNBC, dailykos and drudgereport ... unless they're relevant.
I actually do wonder a little what Grover Norquist's deal is here. I understand his politics (sort of) but I assume receiving a statement laying out the calculations the government is going to use against you could only be an advantage when strategizing how to reduce one's tax bill. That he'd be against it is odd.
Maybe he really wants the whole process to be as inconvenient as possible so people will sign on to some of his other ideas.
With him, it's always a question of whether he's crazy in the obvious way or in a more subtle way.
I think the reason Norquist opposes measures to make the existing tax system easier to live with is that such measures would tend to reduce pressure to implement his proposals to change it. He doesn't care one way or the other about Intuit, H&R Block, or your friendly enrolled CPA, the demand for all of whom would be reduced if he were to succeed in getting his proposals enacted.
As for myself, I happen to believe tax withholding was not one of Milton Friedman's finer inventions[1]. You should get your full paycheck every payday. Then, every quarter, you should have the privilege of cutting a check to the United States Treasury. That would keep taxes on everybody's mind!
[1] http://www.stephankinsella.com/2009/10/fck-you-milton-friedm...
I got hammered owing 6 or 8 hundred dollars for a $200 mistake when I was 10 years old and making money off of my paper route. (No, my parents didn't cover the bill nor do my taxes.)
And I made $10,000 mistake five years ago and they said "Oh - whoops, pay your bill and be more careful next time" and then called it a day.
However there were 20 years between the 2 events.
And the first was found because of an audit, while the second I found and reported within a few months of filing.
There’s a lot going on here. The lesson I draw is: different circumstances different results. But both good and bad results are possible, for fairly similar inputs into the process.
The IRS audited a 10 year old?
Other than the huge (for me) fine, it was a fairly painless experience. My parents did handle it - but even for them other than the stress of knowing it was happening, I think it involved not too much work for them, and as far as they where concerned had not too bad an outcome.
I do suspect my parents double-checked my filings from then on a lot more closely than they had before.
A few months later I got another message from the IRS. "You made a mistake and got $300 too much! Pay us back + interest."
Didn't feel like fighting it because I heard that can go south easily, especially for such a tiny amount, so I paid it back with the interest.
Well that's the thing, the IRS can wait 3 years (or 6 if the error was bad enough), then look at your taxes, and pound you with 4%/year, instead of setting up a job to look at everything right away.
Now your claim is that they're... what, lying in wait? Deliberately maximizing penalties? That's not my experience (our mistake was caught after about 5 months I think). You have a counterexample?
(Edit: and reading the replies, the discussion has now slipped yet further afield from the original assertion, and in two directions: on one hand, it's now outrageous -- yet somehow still an argument against the reforms in the linked article -- that some people merely have "bad experiences" with the IRS. On the other the IRS are apparently now highway bandits literally robbing people with threat of force. I give up.)
You used yourself as an example, he used himself as an example, so I fail to see how he is required to provide another counterexample to you at this point.
My first reaction is "agree" as I have been through this as well.
But now I will modify that agreemet to recognize that not everyone is smart or capable enough to know how to approach fixing something like this with a letter. Or to take the time to read the letter or understand what is going on. Or maybe they go to the clerk at the tax prep office and they are clueless so they ignore the letter and then they have a bigger problem. Stuff like that does happen. There are probably more people who don't know or have the resources to handle this then people that do.
As an aside many years ago I received refunds of thousands of dollars of overpaid sales tax to a state by simply submitting a letter and a spreadsheet which they never audited or checked. I could have said anything with practically any amount (iirc maybe 20k was the amount requested inflation adjusted approx.). By simply presenting a spreadsheet showing the errors each month and writing a letter a check arrived back cheerfully iirc 6 mos. later. Just like that.
But I'll also say that if you want to address tax complexities in a way that will most help those in need, catching unclaimed EITC returns (something like 30% of eligible filers don't claim it, I believe) is a much better use of effort than trying to eliminate underpayment mistakes.
Citation needed.