I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now.
Can we please just let the family grieve?
We are the family.
Can we please just let the family grieve?
We are the family.
We are the people who called him Paris Hilton and told him to man up. We are the people who consistently criticized him just because he was well known. We told him to shut up about ethics and get back to coding. We told him he wasn't any good at coding, either. We didn't treat him as badly as we could have, as we've treated some other people, but I think trying to recast ourselves as "family" is incredibly disrespectful of his actual family who lost their child.
The hypocrisy on this topic has been truly something to behold. So many people calling for prosecutors to explain themselves, but whenever a question is asked of a local, it is "time to grieve, not ask questions."
HN needs to "man up" and accept that the majority of the attitudes in the original post are exactly why things ended the way they did. People bitching about the styling of payment buttons? Telling someone to "man up" or exclaiming (with plenty of IANAL disclaimers) that no one would get jail time for something like this is typical for your average HN discussion thread. This thread (and the subject of this thread) is exactly what I've come to expect from HN - a bunch of (mostly) know-it-all hyper-competitive hyper-critical 20-something assholes trying to backstab or one-up each other to the top.
And Ed, "Not here, and not now" is such a cop-out I'm not even sure how to react to it. Own your shit.
Edit: Said differently, with friends (or family) like these, who needs enemies.
What exactly do you mean by this?
Does your sympathy towards aaronsw merit that you throw empathy out the window? No. Do you actually understand the complex set of events that occurred and how these events relate to one another and the rest of the world? No. Surely, a solution to prevent such a terrible scenario from re-occuring is far removed from personal attacks:
- if you don't like how district attorney works - get moving on changing the law
- don't think prosecutor did their job? point out their job description vs their actions to the proper authority
- don't like how MIT managed case? reach out to the MIT beaurocracy and work with them to improve their process
- don't like edw519 *most upvoted* post on the Sept article? suggest policy changes that could prevent such a comment from appearing on HN
- etc
He, much like my self, probably assumed that someone with millions of dollars could fund the litigation of a federal case, however, the nature of these prosecutions tend to freeze assets, alienate friends and business partners who could help fund a defense and generally make it impossible for justice to be done. I would have been wrong about this too.
We all get stuff wrong from time to time, and to be honest, I'm not sure where the line should be drawn. However, I firmly believe edw519's comments come from a place of experience, love, and support even if it might not be what we always want to hear.
My hope is that my comments when based in love and charity would not be subject to similar comments that edw519's comments have been. It's okay to disagree and edw519 might even disagree in someways with what he wrote.
Let's just eliminate the ability to vote on comments. Seems reasonable. Or pg could shut down the site. Then Ed couldn't make the comment in the first place, right?
Maybe Ed still thinks he was right and he feels compelled to backpedal because in hindsight his comments seem insensitive.
Or maybe your 99%+ statistic is wrong and wisdom of the crowds isn't all it's cracked up to be. If anything, the juxtaposition between this thread and the original thread shows the hypocrisy endemic to crowd driven discussion.
In my studies of nonviolent resistance, this was the core message: People act on what they feel is the right thing to do at the time. If the world deems that wrong, that's a different discussion, and a learning experience for both the world and the actor.
In order to make progress, you must empathize with that person, communicate with them on their terms, and open a discussion on both of your beliefs without judgement.
+1 jonmc12 for your point of view.
You can also "man up" and admit you might have been wrong to characterize a hacker, however successful, asking for financial help in the face of a very serious legal battle as "seriously wrong". No shame in that. Or, alternatively, you can "man up" and own your original opinion.
The "core facts", about whether or not it would be "seriously wrong" for Swarz to ask the community for financial assistance, would be knowledge of Swarz's financials. Was edw519 privy to this information? Probably not.
I think edw519 is a common example of a celebrity case who feels obliged to condescend his important opinion on any mildly prominent case, in a know-it-all, bold manner. And there's no lack of readily available supporters willing to nod and upvote their idol.
I have respect for his technical background, but with fame comes a greater responsibility, which not many carry out well.
It's a tragic story and I'm sure there is much to learn but let the family grieve rather than make click bait and throw people to the wolves ( ironically what this article is commenting on)
Aaron did not receive enough help on his defense bills. This likely part of the reason he is now dead, but only part of it.
Given this how should actions change, if at all? If you think the world would be better if people that held similar opinions to you ed's were slightly different, how should they be different and what argument would have moved you in that direction earlier?
If his opinions have changed then he is free to express that. People say and do things relying on the information they have at that time. I didn't write anything because it was just a gut thought, which is why I didn't donate.
I'm sure that if Aaron had told his side of the story then it would have hurt him in court, but it may have garnered him public interest and funds.
For his immense abilities, Aaron made a lot of enemies due to his confrontational behaviour. This seems to be getting glossed over at the moment and having a close network of people may have been able to save him.
<Aaron did not receive enough help on his defense bills. This likely part of the reason he is now dead, but only part of it.
Definitely part of the reason, but he also had massive depression issues and talked and wrote about suicide long before.
<Given this how should actions change, if at all? If you think the world would be better if people that held similar opinions to you ed's were slightly different, how should they be different and what argument would have moved you in that direction earlier?
I had an opinion but didn't take action because it was negative and of no use. I had no idea about him other than he was a Reddit co-founder that I hadn't heard of before, that he made a bit of money, that he had broken the law and that someone was asking for money for his defense.
I don't think the world is a better place for having held those views, it is what it is.
I would say what would have changed my mind was either Aaron or his friends arguing his case in public. All the people he worked with are now vocal about how great he is, but where were they back then?
For one example: Reddit could have created a funding drive but didn't as far as I can tell. Do I blame them? No.
At the end of the day it is really sad. Nothing will change that.
Witch hunts only create a quick fix to our need to rationalise our anger and pain. Ed wrote a criticism that could equally have been written by Aaron, I'm sure the regret he feels now is far worse than anything you can say.
> Witch hunts only create a quick fix to our need to rationalise our anger and pain.
They are, at least sometimes, more then just that though. They can arise out of desire to make the world different so the same problem does not happen again, or to change community standards, and/or ones own judgment heuristics. Ultimately ineffective and undesired nonetheless. It is hard to come up with solutions that have a quick enough feedback to satisfy short attention spams as much as a which hunt will unfortunately.
Its hard because it is very difficult for our brains to realise the concept that Reddit was profitable but no-where near as profitable as companies that we've never heard about.
I am more taken aback by the overall tone implying that Aaron had some golden-ticket-chance-of-a-lifetime...In hindsight, I don't think anyone would have wanted to shoulder his burdens. I don't think anyone would still say he had a golden ticket.
Probably the greatest lesson in empathy I learned is, "Breaking a child's lego ship causes the same pain as sinking an adults real ship." Your actions and words leave an impression on others. That is a responsibility we too often neglect.
Happiness and meaning can only come form within by definition. Looking at others, judging others, being jealous of others are all ways to deflect our own true feelings. what a shame because feeling our own pain is the only way to truly feel anothers.
Look at all the great people who lived on this Earth, Like Aaron Swartz, the selfless ones who put everyone ahead of them, and examine their lives and you will see DEEP DEEP PAIN. It is a difficult reality to accept, but to truly put others ahead of yourself as Aaron did, you must know what it feels like to be persecuted.
If there is one lesson to take out of this story it is to learn to look within yourself and find happiness and recognize that you have it pretty great, in fact you have it perfect. Perfect for you. Don't be so quick to be jealous of others, Dont be so quick to wonder why they get away with everything or why their life is so much better than yours.
Look Within, and Truly Become Happy With Your Lot.
Yet Another Way Patriarchy Hurts Men(tm)
I think it only becomes reasonable after you present a well thought though argument for why the world is better off when Aaron pays for his own bills vs volunteers helping him with is bills. Until that it is just a statement and opinion.
Maybe we were swayed by the comments, maybe not. Call ourselves hackers, get influenced by some prick who sounds like an uppity high school headmaster. Think we're principled, refuse to take a stand for what's right.
At the very least, we can learn. To take a stand in what we believe in. Without getting swayed by the fakers.
Uh? It's right here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529484
Someone was asking for help and mr. edw519, just spit in his face with such absurd comments.
Lets take a step back. Would you spit in the face of someone asking for help. What type of patronizing comments did edw519 make?
He still hasn't said sorry and that tells me all I need to know about him and his ego.
Shame on the members that supported edw519
Not everyone is going to agree with your civil disobedience actions, or you asking for help with the consequences. That doesn't make them bad people, or wrong people, for saying they don't like your approach, think you should accept consequences, or whatever else. For example, MLK didn't hate the clergymen that disagreed with his direct action approach. He essentially told them to man up, join the movement, and accept the consequences of sitting in jail sometimes as a result. Not that edw519 is quite as eloquent, but none of edw519's comments are patronizing, they were his description of the situation as he saw it, and the outcome he thought should occur.
Characterizing this as "spitting in the face of someone asking for help" is pure hyperbole.
If everyone agreed on a course of action and outcome, you wouldn't actually need a movement. That a person died tragicallly does not mean that everyone who did not see eye to eye with that person is an egotistical patronizing dickhead who spit in their face because they did not want to help the movement. It just means they did not see eye to eye.
Acting as if it is more than that is, as others have said, a circular witchhunt. Sometimes tragic events are just that: Tragic events.
The whole "news" story is ridiculous. One can be sad and feel it a tragedy that a young man committed suicide, even if you disagree with the approach that person took.
Lastly, I'll point out that if edw519 were to meet an untimely demise, your post is exactly of the same tone and impression as his.
It's so unapologetically hypocritical. We don't need to pretend like every tragedy affects us so deeply.
You are assuming that edw519 does not find Cory's eulogy to bring understanding to sad and confused people.
You also claim it doesn't affect him deeply. Maybe it does because he felt he was so hard on him?
In essence, I guess I justify this change by saying I believe his post when he said he feels it will "bring understanding to sad and confused people."
Again, it's perfectly reasonable to dislike or villify someone, but be sad or confused at their passing, and find comfort in a eulogy.
Let me risk a few pitchforks and say I used to villify former senator Ted Stevens. He was an unapologetic pork barrel politician. When he died suddenly in a plane crash, that does not mean I was happy for his death, and I was definitely sad and felt bad for his loved ones. I was not at home screaming "wooh, that arrogant fucker's dead!" while dancing around the room. Had his eulogy been posted here and I noticed, I would have hoped it would bring understanding and comfort to those who loved him.
Does this make me a hypocrite? No, because it's not a pretense. I was in fact, genuinely sad. Personally, I don't think that makes me anything more than "not a sociopath".
It could be i'm just different than a lot of folks, of course. As a lawyer, it's basically beaten into our heads to be dispassionate and objective when evaluating people, emotions, and events.
No, but those who don't support, say, MLK Jr., deserve to be shamed for their regressive attitude.
Practically speaking, the forces of regression are always louder and stronger than the voices for progress. But if we don't denounce and shame those regressive voices, then the voices for progress end up feeling so alone and unloved.
The truth about HN is that there are a lot of selfish, money-grubbing, right-wing people here who would happily shit all over Aaron because Aaron was a left-wing activist.
It's not okay to let these regressive, conservative figures steal the spotlight. If you don't support Aaron's actions, you don't deserve civility. You are beneath contempt and deserve to be spat on, insulted, publically humiliated, like any common racist, bigot, anti-abolitionist, or Ancieme Regime blue blood. Right-wingers simply deserve shame and mockery and if progressive people would hold the conservatives in our midst to standards of human decency, then those conservatives wouldn't be winning the day and our most powerful and successful left-wing activists like Aaron would be less likely to kill themselves.
Aaron literally sacrificed himself for the sake of the species and the response from HN was "fuck Aaron. What did he ever do to help MY bottom line?"
These right-wing assholes on HN should be shamed just like we used to shame racists, sexists, eugenicists, Nazis.
Otherwise I have no idea how you would make this jump in your mind.
'Let's take a step back.'
Techcrunch publish an article singling out a single negative post (among many more) on HN from 120 days ago, and suddenly the pitchfork brigade are screaming for an apology within the hour. No need to worry about the bullying prosecutor any more officer, we've found the man!
Because clearly none of these people have ever said anything rash on the internet. What sanctimonious rubbish.
Looking at the post, it would seem that edw's opinion was the most popular in the hivemind (judging by the upvotes on his comment), so it's fair to single out that post which summarized the thoughts of the many people upvoting.
Unless people just arbitrarily upvoted him, which would have other ramifications ...
Either way, stop it.
2. He sold a book of things that people found insightful. So what? I have a collection of Robert Fulghum's short works, what's the difference really?
3. You're being an asshole right now.
4. The people calling for Ed to publicly apologize are misguided, at best. The only reason that they are even aware of that comment is because it ended up on TechCrunch, and how many of those people are, themselves, guilty of the accusations that they would levy against another respected member here? Once again, the only productive thing that could come from all of this colossal stupidity would be for HN to collectively reconsider its tone and personality.
5. Part of the etiquette here is that if you are going to accuse someone of wrongdoing, you bloody well ought to at least put your name behind it. Whether you agree with that or not, those are the rules here. Using anonymous accounts to spew hatred towards other people is cowardly, at best.
6. My reply to fermule had nothing to do with his internet points, and everything to do with the fact that his comments are so stupid, so inciteful, that either they are the work of a troll or of a member that should know better, or someone from somewhere else on the internet that doesn't know better. What I find most abhorrent about HN at this moment is that fermule's comments currently have a net positive score, despite being almost perfectly identical to the kind of garbage that you'd expect to find on Reddit.
Are you defending his comments? Yes the Prosecution was wrong, but does it negate what Ed said.
If you are defending his comments. What a sad sad action.
You're going to have to do a bit better than that if we're going to have a discussion...
We're a community where people come for insight and honest evaluations. However, those things do not have to be rude or dismissive, and we should all try to raise the tone of the conversation - especially when making uncomfortable statements.
Someone offers a thoughtful and considered opinion, and that's "cyberbullying"? Disagreeing with an opinion you hold, no matter how intelligently and reasonably, is "cyberbullying"?
Your post could have just stopped at "shut the fuck up". Because that's the essential gist of everything that followed.
>Aaron should man up, take responsibility for his actions, and pay his own bills.
This comes across as edw519 saying "Aaron should" do what I think is right. Edw519 may have a deep and well reasons argument for why society would be better if it followed his opinion in the comment, but that argument is not in that comment. It would have be more valuable comment in my opinion if had included such a argument
Stating your opinion with out giving a well reasoned argument is by no means cyberbullying, but they do share some signals and indicators.
Edit: ameliorated ending
edit: Thank you for editing your comment. :-)
Also, fuck you.>>
I resent the last two words but it couldn't have been anything else or anything better.
Yes, you cognoscenti, you know everything and you are talking about everything. It's not just that people bashed him when he was down; they are doing the same thing they do good on HN - comment on anything, disagree with everything and then stick around to prove why you were right and that you were right even though what you said was bs and full of crap.
Who knows, Aaron might have read such comments and that could have added to his hopelessness, or maybe he didn't. No, of course not such a commenter was guilty of aiding his suicide(neither legally or just generally), but then again just look at you.
I mean, really? I come across such commenters with five figure karmas on HN. They sometimes put across a counter-argument because that is technically correct and hence disregard what was said originally and on other occasions they put it because they are practically correct and disregard other's statement anyway. It's always that "oh, I am one notch up now". And yes, everybody loves them - they are the pillars of truth on HN. They never own up to what they did or say, they just go on around arguing and arguing and arguing. They take care of their own and jump in when one of their elk needs some assistance. Very few ever dares(or maybe bothers) to cross them. They are simply correct by definition and design. The elders, maybe. What would I know, I am not one of them. But that's just fine, isn't it?