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Comment by biimugan | Hacker News Reader

I don't quite understand your argument here. In your first pin I'm struggling to find a single building that isn't leveled, or at least severely damaged. Even buildings far away from the city center in the boonies are leveled.

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You can also see a lot of buildings demolished on the Egyptian side too.

In 2015, the Egyptian government announced a plan to demolish the entire Egyptian city of Rafah, in order to deter smuggling with the Gaza Strip. More than a decade on, most of it is gone. The residents were forcibly relocated to elsewhere in Egypt.

It also looks similar to Mosul in Iraq before and after the ISIS and Iraq and coalition forces fought:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middlee...

Urban warfare is brutal, especially when one side systematically digs in and uses IEDs and booby traps in civilian buildings.

> IEDs and booby traps

Scary! Can we get photos of those? Wait, they look suspiciously like medical equipment and incubators…

(Will the Chosen Ones reclassify radiological equipment as nuclear weapons next? Stay tuned for more!)

Yeah, this is not what happened here. You can look up Israeli articles from the time that described that nothing was going on for weeks on end other than demolitions. Basically no fighting. You get Israeli politicians repeating beforehand that Rafah will get leveled.

They wanted to level the city, they did. That's all. There was some fighting eventually with a few fighters holed in in Rafah, but nothing that would justify this. And Israelis continue leveling entire areas the whole year after so called "ceasefire" during which there were almost no attacks on them, yet they managed to murder more than a thousand of people.

> some fighting eventually with a few fighters holed in in Rafah

Can you please remind me where they finally found Yahya Sinwar? And was that before or after they "level[ed] the city"? Do you think they would have found him if they left the city untouched? Why was he there in the first place?

> And Israelis continue leveling entire areas the whole year after so called "ceasefire" during which there were almost no attacks on them

Hamas isn't following a ceasefire; they've been militarily degraded.

There's a causal relationship here: If the IDF hadn't destroyed so many fighting positions and booby-trapped buildings, there would have been many, many more attacks and IDF soldiers KIA.

You say "there's no justification" but unwittingly go on to point out exactly why it's justified.

They are saying that this is genocidal destruction. In a war sometimes civilian infrastructure is hit as collateral. But here, all infrastructure is destroyed and it's clear this wasn't done by 1 or 2 errant bombs but rather because of direct targeting. It can't be argued to be an accident because in farmland you see no bombs which hit the farmland by mistake. In other-words, this is entirely purposeful.

A war requires at least two militaries. This is what happens when a well armed military engages a mostly unarmed civilian society unable to mount significant opposition.

"Before the October 7, 2023 attacks, the total size of Hamas’s military wing (the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) was estimated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence agencies to be between 25,000 and 30,000 fighters, with some intelligence assessments placing the upper limit as high as 40,000. This army was organized into five regional brigades and 24 battalions."

"Hamas's military force prior to October 7, 2023, was roughly 3 to 4.5 times larger than the United States military when measured as a percentage of their respective total populations."

That percentage comparison is fascinating. Say only 1 fighter remains in a tunnel when all the civilians have been finally bombed out and sniped off. By that measure that would mean Hamas is what, 50 times larger than the USA's military?

No link to a source ?

Anyway, IDF as ≈170k active duty personnel and 465k reservists[1]. Literally a different order of magnitude. Add to it the vast different of resources, access to an air force and nuclear weapons and it become even more clearer that there is no comparison possible.

(And comparing personnel count to the USA is laughable as it is vastly different military type. Both a fighter jet pilot and a foot soldier count as one personnel, but it's neither the same force projection nor the same investment of civilians working for the war machine).

1: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/10/14/idf-explai...

You don't need to compare the military forces. You can compare the casualties on both sides or, for a different perspective, you might count the civilians killed inside their own territories (you might count the West Bank if you really want accurate numbers).

Forced displacement is also considered a war crime and, considering what is happening in Gaza and at the West Bank, it would qualify as genocide as well.

Maybe they should be treated like the festival goers?

The IDF has killed not just a higher number but also a higher percentage of civilians, and a much higher percentage of children, than the October 7 attacks[0]. Even if collective punishment was considered not cruel but moral by the larger community, Israel has far surpassed it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war

They would be better off if they were.

comparing the casualties just shows that Hamas are incompetent not that they aren't trying.

I was hoping the numbers would make it obvious the reaction is disproportionate and careless with the lives of civilians.

Yeah, there even is this old archaic rule from the bible/torah/quran, "eye for an eye" that is usually considered barbaric and outdated. But here they go by 35:1 ratio.

new Voight-Kampff test just dropped

I wish I could turn off empathy at my convenience.

It is obvious, but it is also to be expected that a significant number of people here, as elsewhere, will rationalize genocide ... and the comment you responded to is particularly crude in its lack of humanity.

Source: the aggressors

>this is entirely purposeful

Please check Norman Finkelstein's latest book namely Gaza's Gravediggers on this matter [1].

He also has a very telling and chilling interview recently on Palestine and Gaza [2].

[1] Gaza's Gravediggers: An Inquiry into Corruption in High Places [book].

[2] Norman Finkelstein Reveals Shocking Discoveries While Researching History of Israel’s Gaza Obsession [video]:

https://youtu.be/Jmv2h1WYnNo

What a nice, objective guy:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/uyqjn2/norman_fink...

He also promotes transphobia. Chomsky was friends with Epstein and acquaintance of Steve Bannon. I don’t think that discredits his entire body of work, but I think we should stop promoting him when there are sources that are less problematic.

You are mixing Chomsky (the subreddit) up with Norm (the book author). Norm was friends with Chomsky but not Epstein or Bannon. I'm unaware of him having transphobic views.

Norman Finkelstein's treatment of sources is dubious at best , dishonest at worst, and he is not very good at defending his position when challenged on them

At least that was my takeaway after watching his debate with Destiny (the streamer) and Benny Morris (the historian):

You be the judge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs&list=PLrAXtmErZg...

Save your Hasbara. It is backfiring.

I don't know what that means and I am not going to search for it. Have fun with your ingroup that uses words that only you all know what they mean to recognize each other from the outgroup.

The irony here is so perfect that I don't know what to say. Absolutely masterful.

I am glad to know you like what's happening in your own head. Good for you

I would caution against uncritical consumption of Finkelstein's work. He is a bit unhinged, and limited in what content he can analyse as he can't read Arabic or Hebrew.

Also Tucker Carlson? Seriously?

Looks the same in Ukraine, and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.

Doesn't mean that here the targeting couldn't have been done with the primary goal of displacing the population, but the buildings being destroyed doesn't prove the motive.

> Looks the same in Ukraine

It does not.

> and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.

What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position. Everything gets pounded, even forests and tree lines. It’s more like Verdun than anything that happened in Gaza.

> It does not

In absolutely does [1].

> What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position

If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too. The same messaging about exterminating a culture that doesn't "actually" exist from senior leadership. The same attacks on children. The same destruction and systematic razing of civilian settlements.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI

It can be (and is imho) true that both Russia and Israel have broadcasted genocidal intent with the consequences being war crimes and still not look identical

It seems like the state of Ukraine frontline cities is due to intense artillery fire and air bombingn whereas gaza cities states seem to be more of systematic bulldozing of entire areas which would erase the marks of actual bombings and make the scale harder to assess

> If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too.

Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different. And the genocide aspect is not what is discussed here.

Also, why do you think that “Russia is doing the same thing” is some kind of gotcha?

Well, it happened in germany with the hitleryouth and volksturm.

The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.

Systematic destruction of urban areas is sadly what modern urban combat operations look like.

When an enemy digs in and choose to fight and die in an urban area, this is how war plays out.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...

WAR IS HELL

> The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.

But that’s not what we see in Gaza. The parents specifically mentioned that only towns were leveled. The destroyed towns are not the only relevant aspect. The other one is that major damage happens only there. And of course it would, because the Israeli forces don’t want to sterilise the land; they want to take it. In contrast, Russia is happy to be king of the rubble as long as Ukrainians eat shells.

If your enemy is dug in in an urban area, you bomb the hell out of it before you send in infantry to clean up. If you don’t use artillery and bombs the defenders will mow down the assault units.

This is how urban war is played out between near peer armies.

Think about this, I’m in a concrete bunker with a machine gun, do you want to charge the bunker and get shot, or do you want to call in an airstrike to destroy the bunker with the machine gun position? I know what I’d do

Or, if you're the IDF, and the bunker is filled with neutral UN Observers monitoring for war crimes, you also send in a laser-guided bunker-busting airstrike. Then you insist it was an "accident" while refusing to cooperate with the subsequent investigations.

https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2015/07/24/history-july-25th-2006-m...

Of note, just days before the strike, one of the Observers sent an unencrypted email home to his wife noting that he was observing Israeli war crimes and would be reporting them.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/un-officer-reported-is...

"When in doubt, send in an airstrike."

Rafah was no village, with 250,000 to 280,000 people.

It does not look the same, at all.

Cities in the heat of the conflict (i.e boots on the ground) sure do look like that

Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this.

Many of the towns along the front with Russia are also wastelands. Nearly every single building from homes, to schools, to shops are rubble.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-26/damage-data-reveals-e...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-...

And that just from the start of war.

Yeah, we can look at how Mariupol looks on satellite images. It looks nothing like Rafah. You have to be completely blind to not see the difference.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mar'inka,+Donetsk+Oblast,+...

Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TncezF72LxaWAKYY7

That’s Bahkmut which is still close to the frontline. They were talking about Mariupol which the Russians have actually rebuilt already, see here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mariupol,+Donetsk+Oblast,+...

"Russia is claiming it as theirs for the last four years and has largely rebuilt it" is not really counter-evidence to destruction during the fighting

Mariupol probably did see less destruction. But for the actively contested regions, the biggest difference between Russian destruction and Israeli destruction is that the Russians use artillery, which leaves shells of buildings standing, while Israel uses bulldozers that are a lot more thorough in leaving no stone on the other

Also the Palestinian buildings are practically made of cardboard because that's all the supplies they can get (because mysteriously supplies keep not arriving, oh well, no way to know why they don't)

No, Mariupol was just one (arguably not the best) example answer to the original question, "Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this."

Seriouslly?

You can find lots of videos of Russia firing thermobaric weapons into populated areas - you will find none fired by Israel into Gaza. And I don't think that's because IL doesn't have them.

To busy using white phosphorous on kids.

Well, Russia's use of white phosphorous during the invasion and ensuing occupation of Ukraine is well documented

Red herring, my argument was not "everything IL army did was good", it was "RU army's behavior is so much worse, how can you even question that?". IL obviously was at the very least "not very concerned" about civilian population; but I don't think there's established evidence that they were actively trying to kill civilian population, just for the sake of it, with no military advantage. Whereas, e.g. "human safari" is a well documented thing in the Russian army.

I think your distinction is a valid one, Israel has some war crimes going on whereas russian invasion of Ukraine was a war crime festival but you are fighting an uphill battle because trying to make distinctions in levels of evil is generally frowned upon because to many people it looks like justification. The reason is because most people can't imagine any other value to making distinctions in evil. I personally can but each time you are going to do it, you should be prepared to defend why, in fact, making those distinctions is useful while being clear that the purpose is not justification of evil acts. It's a thin line to walk on.

(i can't edit apparently): why the downvotes? Serious question I don't understand, is there anything I said above false? The parent comment is questioning whether RU cruelty in Ukraine is anything close to what IL did - and the answer is yes, it's actually much worse, especially when you factor in that it's completely unprovoked.

There is no way it’s worse. To be comparable the Russians would have to have flattened Kyiv and most other cities which is extremely far from reality. The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.

> The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.

It's exactly the same in Gaza! You basically justified Israel's actions here... Check the distance between Gaza City & Israel border, vs distance beetween Bakhmut & Russia's border. Tell me which one is farther away - I'll wait

I wonder why Israel put the border there. It didn't used to be the border.

The destruction in Ukraine is mostly focused on the front line. Gaza was treated as a front line almost in its entirety, with almost no place to hide.

I'm sorry, Ukraine war discussion was labeled political on HN, not allowed, actively moderated and shutdown. Please don't post it here. Only Gaza/Israel get's a special carveout for these sorts of discussions on HN.

I’m not sure your point? They are not civilians when they are covering up tunnels in their homes for Hamas to use.

Look at Google map of Gaza city, Rafah, Khan-Younes, Al Qarara, ... pretty much all building have been destroyed. You want to try to argue that every one of them was somehow hiding a tunnel ?

Is having tunnels in their own territory a problem?

If it was genocide, why would you spare the farmers? Doesn’t really make sense.

there are videos of bulldozer in the West Bank eradicating secular olive trees from Palestinian farmland. There is no Hamas in West Bank, no tunnels, no fighters.

It’s more efficient to spend your ammo on housing and city buildings.

Wouldn’t it actually be much more efficient to just destroy all the food infrastructure and just have everyone die from hunger instead of destroying all the houses?

You're right, it is, hence the strikes on World Central Kitchen and the blockade on food entering the area.

they send armed settlers for the farms. they can't destroy those

Farmland wasn't bombed, but they did use Bulldozers to destroy a lot of fields.

Food production was target, even in different part of Palestine (west bank).

Farmers were killed, even in different part of Palestine.

Killing farmers have nothing to do with the definition of genocide.

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