Comment by dragontamer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dragontamer | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

That's mostly a feature of monarchies. Even in European settings, monarchs claimed divine right to rule.

That's why ex: El Cid (a great knight/military commander in Spain) was a threat to King Alfonso. (Doubly so because El Cid is a local hero who could raise a combined Muslim+Catholic Army, while King Alfonso was Catholic only. El Cid actually comes from Al-Sayyid, the nickname the Muslim locals gave to El Cid )

This happened enough in the Catholic monarchies that I have to believe it's really just the shape of Monarchies. Like the King of the Franks King Charlemagne the Great is basically known for his military exploits, with Paladins (his royal guard) forever influencing future Europeans and creating the image of an ideal Holy Warrior.

Did I say military exploits? I mean spreading Catholicism to the pagan Saxons. By conquest. During the Dark and Middle Ages, they spread Catholicism the old fashioned way, with the sword.

I do believe that Kim Jong Um military Uncle was put to death as well, likely as court intrigue and a preventative measure to prevent a powerful well respected General from overstepping his king.

Kings are always worried about their generals. Or better yet, Kings are themselves a general to prove their divine authority.

So then why did damn near every European royal family make a habit of giving every prince and bastard son, including ones not in line for the throne, armies to go play around with?

If you're a crappy king the last thing you want is someone with a "legitimate claim" to the throne with an army to back them up instigating your court to depose you.

Good question.

Followup question: do you know the story of how the Frankish Kingdom of Charlemagne the Great got split up into Lombards, France and HRE (basically modern Germany) ??

Kings juggled the conflicting tasks of choosing an inheritor, as well as preventing their sons from rising up and... let's just say "William the Bastard-ing" everyone.

Yes, on occasion a random bastard son will take over all of Normandy and Briton.

So I don't really know what your question is. That happened, constantly. Brothers killed each other, and sometimes their fathers, in a mad game of power for damn near a thousand years.

But clearly the kings of the time thought the risks were worth the reward. A hereditary title of king means that your followers know who is charge if you died in battle. The risk of your sons deposing you was accepted, because the risks of dying for other reasons (disease, famine, war...) was greater.

Because the parent's central thesis is wrong. Kings didn't war to spread religion because most of them weren't religious. They warred over land and power.

The way feudal societies worked, allegiance was like a (bottom up) tree. If your lord was at war with the king you followed the fool. ACOUP has a good number of posts on the workings of feudal societies if you have the time to read them.

Richard the Lionheart spent 10 years away from home and at most 6 months in Briton.

Do you know why he was fighting in wars in far away lands? It certainly wasn't about land or power (at least, not for Richard)

It was a Crusade. The 3rd Crusade to be precise.

-------

Also the whole Reconquista thing in Spain, coinciding with the Spanish Inquisition and all that. Plenty of major religious events that interacted with politics and brought glory to commanders.

And then things like the 30 Years War, which had substantial amounts of religious influence of Protestants vs Catholics.

I'm not saying every war was about religion. But Catholics have PLENTY of holy warriors that are even venerated for their battle prowess.

> This happened enough in the Catholic monarchies that I have to believe it's really just the shape of Monarchies.

There are still 12 monarchies in Europe, some of them Catholic, some Protestant. Your theory does not work there. The monarchies and Catholicism itself evolved (to a great degree, courtesy of the French Revolution), while Islam seems to have stalled.

The King of England isn't in charge of the UK though. The power largely rests in Andy Burnham.

The job of the monarchy today is largely traditional. They pass and bless today's (better) government systems.

> The monarchies and Catholicism itself evolved, while Islam seems to have stalled.

Do you know the story of Iranian Democracy from 1960s?

There are... complications... to democracies in the middle east.

> The job of the monarchy today is largely traditional. They pass and bless today's (better) government systems.

I wish: <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/08/royals-vette...>.

> There are... complications... to democracies in the middle east.

It seems there are complications to all forms of government in the Middle East.

> The King of England isn't in charge of the UK though. The power largely rests in Andy Burnham.

Yes and no...

Firstly there's not been a King of England since 1707, he's king of the United Kingdom (and fourteen other places) and secondly it really depends who you ask. On paper sovereignty flows from the 'Crown in Parliament', many powers are actually the King's and are now vested in other parts of the state. Since the 19th century these powers tend to be used 'on the advice of the Prime Minister / Cabinet'. In theory the King could go against this advice, but Parliament ritually reminds [1] the King's representative what happened the last time a king got too uppity and the courts can still rule on the limits of these powers. There's one view which says the people are fundamentally sovereign (very relevant during Charles I's trial for treason), but while this might be true in practice the orthodox view is that sovereignty comes from the 'King-in-Parliament', a composite body of the King, House of Commons, and House of Lords acting in concert.

The point is that when Andy Burnham exercises his power in many cases he's in a sense doing 'su king' by virtue of his role as PM rather than acting in his own right. The PM role is weird as well, traditionally (and in my opinion correctly) the PM is merely the first among equals in a collectively responsible Cabinet, the term 'Prime Minister' actually started life as an insult. Of course since the late 20th century the role has become increasingly presidential, but this seems true in Westminster-style systems generally.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rod#State_Opening_of_Par...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com