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Comment by chaostheory | Hacker News Reader

Canadian salaries are terrible once you realize that the cost of living in Canada is just as high or even higher than the US, which is why a lot of Canadian engineers left for the US

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This just isn't true. Yes, ratio of salary to cost of living is better in the US, setting aside the precarious immigration process, political instability, high rates of gun crime, lack of healthcare, etc. I left this reply to someone else claiming the same thing:

You can easily look up the cost of living for e.g. Vancouver:

> Cost of Living Including Rent in San Francisco, CA is 57.8% higher than in Vancouver

> Rent Prices in San Francisco, CA are 91.7% higher than in Vancouver

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

I was just transferred from the silicon valley to Vancouver so I have to comment...:

1. Vancouver is well regarded as one of the least affordable cities. 2. I stay in the same role but got a 40%+ pay cut so that offsets the "Cost of Living Including Rent". 3. If you compare other bay area cities (Sunnyvale, San Mateo, Fremont...) where tech workers live to Vancouver, it's not as dramatic. 4. While I support universal health care, which is good for average people in society, it's not necessarily a pro for tech workers. US tech companies buy good health insurance plans for their employees. I used to walk in my company's on-site health centers to get same-day health care in the US. In Canada, I have to wait for days to see the primary care provider and drive one hour to another provider to get exams.

Yes, I agree on all points. I have researched this a lot as I'm also planning a move to Vancouver for life reasons. I was just replying to the plainly false claim that cost of living in NYC/SF is the same as that in the most expensive cities in Canada.

Side note: if you're willing for me to ask you some questions about your move I would be really grateful.

This isn’t a good comparison because a better comparison would be the SF Bay Area (the metro) instead of just SF. Also my point is that the Canadian cost of living is comparable to the US while simultaneously having salaries that are a fraction of the US. I believe your nurses are also going south for the same reason though a few places like Vancouver have started to subsidize their housing.

Then we should compare to the Vancouver metro area, which is also cheaper.

I'm not denying that the cost of living to salary ratio is better in the US. But it is simply false to say that the cost of living in cities like Vancouver (widely considered the most expensive in Canada) is the same as SF or NYC. Rent in SF is roughly double that of Vancouver, which itself has the most expensive rent in Canada.

The Vancouver metro real estate and rent are roughly the same as the SF Bay Area while having a fraction of the pay

I only know this because we thought of relocating to Canada

I was just in Vancouver staying with some friends who had a 3 bedroom in a nice neighborhood for $3700CAD ($2700USD) per month. I know several people in SF paying that for a studio.

Beyond anecdotes, various comparison websites have rent in SF at around 100% more than Vancouver.

Obviously salaries are lower in Canada and your disposable income can very likely be lower living there if you're in tech.

For the nth time, most people who work in Silicon Valley, even the ones who work in SF, do not live in SF where the prices are more comparable to Vancouver. This is one of the major reasons we didn't move to Canada.

And not everyone who works in Vancouver lives in the city of Vancouver either. There are 10 or so other cities within commuting distance.

A fair comparison would compare areas outside of SF with areas outside of Vancouver. There are obviously some outliers like Oakland, but on average you would expect to pay 50%-100% more in rent in the Bay Area than in the Vancouver area.

There is a lot of data available online that you can find very easily. Zillow for example, regarding rent for a one bedroom:

SF average rent: $4,440 USD [1] vs. Vancouver average rent: $2,500USD [2]

Mountain view average rent: $3,395USD [3] vs Burnaby average rent: $1,989USD [4]

Union City average rent: $2400USD [5] vs Surrey average rent: $1689USD [6]

[1] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/san-fran...

[2] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/vancouve...

[3] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/mountain...

[4] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/burnaby-...

[5] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/union-ci...

[6] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/surrey-b...

1. Your comparisons aren’t that great. Burnaby’s twin is Oakland and not Mountain view.

2. You’re ignoring the option of buying homes which is impossible for Canadian vancouver salaries but still possible with American salaries in the SF Bay Area

Again, I am not making comparisons adjusted to salaries. I'm just proving that claims that the cost of living is "just as high or even higher than the US" (not adjusting for salary) are false. Simply looking around Vancouver on zillow proves this to be obvious. For example, I found multiple 3b2b houses with backyards for under $3kUSD in nice areas walking distance from central Vancouver, which is literally impossible in SF.

Otherwise, as I already stated, we agree that it is almost always better from an economic perspective to live in San Francisco as an engineer, given the vastly higher salaries.

NOTE: I'm specifically responding to your claim that "the cost of living in Canada is just as high or even higher than the US", in the context of HCOL areas where tech workers typically reside.

Honestly I don't know what can convince you, so maybe we can just agree to disagree.

its a matter of building a sustaining tech ecosystem: colleges, employers, investors ecosystem.

Once they figure out the ecosystem Canada can arbitrage away the broken US immigration policies and anti-immigrant bigotry.

Just as manufacturing jobs in heartland have left US for Asia, so do tech jobs can leave US for Canada, India and elsewhere

> Once they figure out the ecosystem Canada

1. It is not easy to immigrate to Canada.

2. There is also a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in Canada even from people on the left if you’re not white. Canadians just do not like Asians anymore.

3. Canada has so much red tape for business that it forces many entrepreneurial Canadians to either gravitate towards real estate, online streaming as entertainers, or simply just move down south.

The us is not anti-immigrant, it accepts massive numbers of immigrants every year. It would be below sustainable birthrate without it.

That was before the current administration. We are already below a sustainable birth rate directly thanks to policies by Miller.

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