Comment by edyang | Hacker News Reader

Comment by edyang | Hacker News Reader

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"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence . from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." George Washington

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." Thomas Paine

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not." Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that . it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. " Thomas Jefferson

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton

These quotes are bogus. The Jefferson doesn't exist:

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/those-who-hammer-th...

The Hamilton has been mangled:

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed29.htm

And so on. Shoddy fabrication is not debate.

Thanks gruseom - I'm so tired of seeing those bogus quotes thrown around by pro-gun fanatics....

Given that a militia in their context is a completely obsolete concept, the validity of their ancient beliefs should be considered as current as their dire fears of a ginormous standing Army.

Get rid of the Army & Marines, and we can go back to such quaint times.

Ah, but even semi-armed insurgents can cause massive casualties.

To argue that guns in the hands of many cannot affect a modern government military is a farce.

Had Europeans had as many guns as their American counterparts would Hitler have conquered Europe?

Making pithy statements is easy. Try putting some thoughts into your answers.

"Had Europeans had as many guns as their American counterparts would Hitler have conquered Europe?"

Um...yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Denmark_(194... The number of privately owned guns had absolutely nothing to do with it.

My comment was an example of a pithy statment that did not have any deep thought or research. I was making a counter example.

I'm sure the citizens suffering the aftermath of Katrina and Sandy know how quick and responsive the federal government is, right? Or the shop keepers in Koreatown during the LA riots. Bottom line is, why on earth would I want to rely solely on the government for my own safety and self-defense?

Those are quotations from really instructed people in the current state of the art.

> the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference

Any data on this, all data suggests that were there are more guns there are more deaths, apparently evil interferes can buy guns too.

If the hypothesis that "more guns = more crime" were true, then as the number of guns increased, violent crime should also increase. However, we see the opposite is true. US violent crime is down for the fifth straight year since 2006: http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/29/justice/us-violent-crime/index...

But since 2006, gun sales have soared: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/05/9983727-fbi-firea...

"Purchases of handguns and rifles, which had held steady throughout the early part of the decade, began to surge in 2006 and have nearly doubled since then, according to FBI data."

So a doubling of gun sales coupled with a declining violent crime rate over a 5 year period should handily dispatch the notion that "more guns = more crime", correct?

>>Any data on this, all data suggests that were there are more guns there are more deaths, apparently evil interferes can buy guns too.

Le me give you a different perspective on the matter. Free Speech means that you can be critical of the government. It also means that you can spout hatred against something you dislike [1].

I believe most people agree that criticizing your government is what free speech was meant for and not for attacking some harmless group. But to control one kind of speech is to control the other which is why it is not done. In essence, you cannot have it both ways. It is a necessary evil.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#United_States

http://mygunculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Ireland_m...

http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png

http://politisite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/dc-gun-ban-...

http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/chicago_handguns....

I like to cherry pick data too.

USA is the developed country with more Gunshot deaths per capita http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-...

UK 7 consecutive years with murder rate falls after stronger gun control, UK have more in common with USA than Jamaica or Ireland

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-s...

The percentage of the crimes committed with firearms in USA is way higer than the half of Colombia, a third world country with multiple armed guerrillas for more than 40 years.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence

Since the UK's gun ban in 1997, gun crime has gone up 89% in a decade: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-viol...

"The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold."

Unfortunately the Daily Mail isnt really a news source. Try:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-s...

> In 2010/11, firearms were involved in 11,227 recorded offences in England and Wales, the seventh consecutive annual fall and a decrease of 13 per cent compared with the previous year (when 12,976 offences were recorded).

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

Unless you exclude suicide, in which case you see as more and more millions of guns are produced every year, murder (and even homicide overall, which includes self defense and accidental homicide) rates are at their lowest point since any time between 1998 and 2004 depending on which specific metric you look at.

It is intellectually dishonest to include suicide when talking about "gun deaths."

Furthermore, the suicide rate in “gun-free” Japan, at Number 7 on the global list of national suicide rates with 23.8 per 100,000, dwarfing the comparable rate of 11.8 in the heavily-armed United States, which comes in at Number 41.

This is an interesting statistic. What is the source, the WHO?

Why is intellectually dishonest? Is your view that the 100% of gunshot suicides would have been successfully committed anyway through other mediums? Or they lives don't count because they don't value/want them?

100%? Of course not. The vast majority? I'm willing to bet, yes.

The reason I think it's intellectually dishonest has nothing to do with suicide itself. When someone behind a keyboard or behind a news desk talks about gun-related deaths or gun violence, the image is of armed robberies, execution-style murder, and more recently the crazy white kid with the assault rifle. If you live in certain parts of the US you might think of gang violence.

It does not evoke a mental image of the divorced alcoholic ending his life with a revolver, or the undiagnosed depressed college student with his dad's handgun. These are two thirds of gun-related deaths, and they're cheapened when pundits and members of Congress use them to try and score political points.

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