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Comment by walrus01 | Hacker News Reader

I've repeatedly said here on HN that Steve Jobs was king of the assholes and a huge piece of shit, and been soundly flamed for it. A vast amount of first hand anecdotes of him being an asshole exist and are likely not fabrications by the people reporting them. And yet people think he's some sort of god like figure because apple made cool products.

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You can be a jerk and be brilliant at the products you create. One can admire the latter while criticize the former.

Jobs revolutionized music and computing.

Agree

If anything he was one of the few hard a-holes that managed to channel that to productive purposes

Being a jerk is easy. Being a jerk that still keeps people motivated it really hard.

Kubrick was known for that as well.

As a counter point some very boring individuals who are not jerks nor capable of forming a cult of personality have invented singularly iconic and widespread products which achieved great market share. One example would be Eugene Stoner and his design for the AR-15/M16.

You’re comparing Eugene Stone to Steve Jobs?

No, I'm saying Eugene Stoner was a singularly boring individual apart from inventing one thing. Sort of an anti steve jobs.

Yeah but I would not say the products Stone invented are the same kind of, and I quote, “iconic”, as the products that Jobs invented. They’re just in totally different universes.

The AR-15 pattern rifle is certainly iconic; on its own probably more so (i. e. more recognizable) than almost all of Jobs's products. When allowing for the typical collective amnesia, the only two products that match, or manage to exceed, its iconographic status are the iPhone and the iPad; when bringing in historical expertise you can probably add the Apple II.

Interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that if you asked people in the US or around the world to pick the most iconic products that they would rank the AR-15 in particular above the top Apple products.

I guess it is possible, but I would be very surprised.

I might even think that the AK-47 or the Glock have more name recognition. But what do I know?

> I might even think that the AK-47 or the Glock have more name recognition.

A "yes" on the AK, and a "no" on the Glock.

The AR-15, incl. its variants, isn't called "America's Rifle" for nothing; it's the West's (tm) (cultural) analogon to the AK. Make the test and ask some "normies" to pick out an AR-15. Then do the same for the Apple products. I doubt many will be able to pick out an Apple II.

I'm just casually familiar with guns, if I saw an AR-15, I'd call it an AK-47. Or a machine gun. Every single human walking the earth has an iPhone or its replicant.

It's good to have a fandom.

> I'm just casually familiar with guns, if I saw an AR-15, I'd call it an AK-47. Or a machine gun.

Okay. Sure. Just as there are people who call(ed) every video game console, or even home computer, under the sun "a Nintendo". I wouldn't call that casual familiarity... but I'm not here to argue about it.

> It's good to have a fandom.

I s'pose. If you've thought that's me you're sordidly mistaken; I'm not a gun afficionado but just somebody who's got to shoot short- and long-barreled guns to keep my weapon's permits, which I need if I ever have to carry one on the job. I would describe myself as casually familiar with guns, not more.

Stoner is more of a Wozniak. You’re comparing a guy who patented part of a rifle that later got used in another company’s DOD bid (and keep in mind militaries are strongly incentivized to standardize on platforms for basic logistics reasons), to a narcissistic asshole who sold something to a mass consumer market. Just different skillsets.

As much as Steve Jobs was an asshole, at least he didn't invent tools whose only purpose is to kill people...

Like, maybe find a better example?

Mikhail Kalashnikov.

Fun fact: Stone and Kalashnikov were friends.

It's the implication that success excuses it that sucks. The fans don't care how their status symbols came about - only that they have them. The illusion is presented that without him we'd all be using MS-DOS to this day.

I don't get your point.

He was, objectively, a huge POS. Ask anyone who worked with him. He ruined people for capital gain. He failed to acknowledge his first child. He time and again made people miserable.

The man, the myth, the legend.

That phrase gets bandied about quite casually in my experience. Usually is an ironic light joke about somebody in your peer group on talking to other people or near your peer group.

As such, it's been sort of semantically watered down quite a lot in our popular cult.

But it's perfect for people like Steve Jobs.

He was a huge piece of shit. Yet, when I lived in Silicon Valley, I saw parents scrambing to get a house in the right district so their kid could go to Homestead High and have a shot of "being like Steve Jobs." They want their kids to be deadbeat dads who die in their 50s?

No one has been remembered for being extra nice alone. I mean, being an asshole is inconsequential if you are brilliant.

Only total losers whine about such silly things in successful people...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Rogers

Never heard about this dude..

Amazing, kind, intelligent individual that was part of tons of kids morning routines growing up.

> No one has been remembered for being extra nice alone.

That might depend on how strict "alone" is. (Perhaps by definition, only having a singular exceptional trait makes it challenging to be renown.) For example, might Fred Rogers count? Or Dolly Parton who, though remembered for many things, has kindness as a core part of her legacy.

I think many people are remembered for being kind, but only by those who knew them very well, such as family and friends.

Yea, you should be already known for some other things. Then being nice could add to it. But just being nice is not going to make you known.

>No one has been remembered for being extra nice alone.

RIP Dolly

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[meme:bobbyHILL@classroom_window.jpeg] "Thanks to Dolly, these kids can read, and they are very upset..."

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Long live the Queen['s Imagination Libraries]!

Steve Jobs will be forever be remembered as an asshole.

Well, depending on how you define success, I'd say Trump is successful getting elected as POTUS twice. He sure is a brilliant man to be revered, and the people complaining about his allegations are surely losers... (sarcasm to be certain)

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