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Comment by 7bit | Hacker News Reader

You cannot be serious! That comparison is a joke. There's worlds between the complexity of Minecraft and DF.

How would you suggest someone make a good tutorial for DF that doesn't leave the player exhausted by the time they start a new game?

That's my core complaint w/ strategy games. By the time I'm done with the tutorial i have to do other things only to forget everything I learned the next time I get to sit down with it.

At best "hints" or a glossary/help menu is the best way imo.

Several people have given the opinion in this thread that DF is basically immune to having a tutorial; I am trying to figure out why. I don't see a tutorial as an end-to-end blueprint of everything the game is capable of. It's just a series of info, hints, and follow-along instructions, possibly with railroaded / simplified UI. I mean, the first time I booted up DF with no context circa 2013, it took me a few minutes to figure out that we're seeing a top-down view. I certainly would have appreciated a hint or a tutorial (though I do not necessarily fault the game for not having one; it's _not_ a game that is aimed at onboarding heaps of fresh newbies by the truckload each week).

Why you ask me that?

Because this is a discussion about tutorials and on-ramps to new players, and their necessity in games, specifically in Dwarf Fortress.

He changed the topic with his questions and you fell for his cheap trick. Hahaha

Regardless of the difference in complexity, I think the fact that it became the bestselling videogame of all time despite the fact that it essentially "has no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players" makes it a valid example for showing why tutorials and on-ramps for new players are not as important as the comment I replied to made it sound.

If you disagree, I'd like to hear your thoughts on where you think the threshold in complexity is when games should start including a tutorial and/or on-ramps for new players.

I don't know where the threshold is, but the comparison lacks in the same way that a coloring book doesn't need a tutorial, but a blank paper that has HANGMAN written on it does need one or people don't know how to play it.

You can't say because minecraft doesn't have a tutorial, dwarf fortress doesn't need one either. That's just retarded

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