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Comment by YZF | Hacker News Reader

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> The DSA wants to abolish the existing US democratic process.

That reads as though you’re saying they want to abolish the democratic process, but as somebody living in a country with many of the democratic processes they’re proposing, looking in on what seems like a very dysfunctional democratic process in the US, it seems to be that they want to replace it with a much better version of itself.

While many people find the Leftist route of saving the country, the right route makes more sense to me. Reduce taxes to near zero - eliminate minimum wage - it's a recipe for starting companies. The left's answer is to destroy all companies. People think a company will exist in a leftist controlled world, but they're dead wrong.

Clearly a social component can exist within a democracy, European nations are an example of this? Are there any proposals more radical than European-adjacent style social policies?

As a citizen of one of the European countries you mentioned, let me tell you: The DSA would run as a center-left party in pretty much the entire union. You have—respectfully—not a clue what socialism means, because the DSA agenda has absolutely nothing in common with communism in the first place.

I disagree. When I moved from Finland to the US, I was surprised to find how popular actual "abolish private property" style socialism was among young Americans. I hanged out with leftist people when I was a student, and I kind of knew many of the people who eventually ended up running the Left Alliance (the main left-wing party). My impression was that they had all accepted free markets as a necessary evil, rather than advocating for the socialism of their predecessors. But it looks like Finnish students have started adopting American socialist ideas in the recent years.

Bernie is probably the most well-known democratic socialist in the US, but he is not a member of DSA. By his political positions he would be either in the left wing of Finnish Social Democratic Party or in the mainstream of the Left Alliance. He would probably choose the Left Alliance, since it is more like a coalition of like-minded activists, while the party is the primary actor for the Social Democrats.

AOC, another well-known democratic socialist, would also fit in the Left Alliance. She is part of the moderate wing of DSA. But if you start looking into the ideological wing, you find plenty of actual socialists who would make Finnish mainstream leftists uncomfortable.

I would argue that the USA suffers from its bipartisan system in a lot of ways; among them the problem of two parties having to span an incredibly wide range of political positions that are often so far apart to be almost irreconcilable. I'm pretty sure you will find some people with uncomfortable positions at the fringe seams of the Left Alliance as well, they are just organised in a very different system compared to the US and do not have the momentum to rally around these positions right now.

Fringe groups tend to start new political parties in the Finnish system. There are still two communist parties left, both offshoots of the pro-Soviet minority of the original communist party. One of them even has the official status of a political party, but probably not for long, as it lost its last seats in the 2021 local elections.

> DSA's agenda is socialism via the democratic process, and

> The DSA wants to abolish the existing US democratic process.

So, getting into elected office by winning elections is wanting to abolish the democratic process?

I think I'm beginning to understand why the hardcore MAGA folks loves Trump so much.

I'm guessing it's more about "abolish the Senate"

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/07/senate-representat...

Incidentally, if I wanted to sabotage a movement, I'd probably try to convince it to adopt ideas I know would be controversial with the wider public

>The DSA wants to abolish the existing US democratic process.

You misspelled "Trump".

There is only one party making it harder for people to vote, and it is the Republican party.

They are part of the democratic party so they are democrats.

As for their agenda, you are wrong.

I'm going to believe what they say:

https://www.dsausa.org/

"The Democratic Socialists of America is the largest socialist organization in the United States, with over 100,000 members and chapters in all 50 states. We believe that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few."

"Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit. We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society."

"democratic socialism" is an oxymoron. socialism conflicts directly with democratic values. At the very least there is no pre-existing example of democracy and socialism working side by side. All previous socialist "experiments" were not democracies.

If 'democratic values' are everyone having an equal voice in how the systems of a country are arranged. And if those people, through a democratic process, decide that the systems of their country shouldn't support the exploitative elements of capitalism, then it would definitely be democracy in action to make that come true. Anything counter to that would be, by definition, anti-democratic.

When you say "socialism conflicts directly with democratic values" I genuinely have no idea what "democratic values" you're talking about.

> "democratic socialism" is an oxymoron

No it's not, check out Europe, mostly northern countries, it's working just fine.

> At the very least there is no pre-existing example of democracy and socialism working side by side.

Again, northern europe screaming at you.

So you're wrong...

Also, you're Canadian, maybe it's not your business

I am also a Canadian, and since midnight we are in a big economic war with the USA.

I feeel those topics are a bit of my business.

Who exactly imposed those tarriffs?

Scandinavian countries you are referring to are practicing Social Democracy, they are not Democratic Socialist states.

In other words, Social Democrat != Democratic Socialist

Scandinavian model relies on competitive private enterprise to create wealth, combined with strong labor union collective bargaining, universal public services, and high consumption/income taxes that apply broadly across society.

DSA seeks to move past or dismantle the capitalist economic system, advocating for social, public, or worker ownership of the means of production.[1]

[1] https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism...

No they do not and it doesn't say that anywhere in the linked website.

Why are you lieing?

From what i can read they want the same scandinavian model with strong labor unions, universal public services and so on.

"We want to collectively own the key economic drivers that dominate our lives, such as energy production and transportation."

From the linked website. Now, that's not quite "the means of production", explicitly stated. It's just "the key economic drivers", so most of the means of production.

Maybe you ought to be a little less quick to accuse others of lying.

Those still sound like Scandinavia? Energy Production - Vattenfall in Sweden, the Norway oil fund. Transportation? Public transport is mostly publicly owned (trains go back and forth with failed privatization attempts), the road network is wholly state-owned (unlike e.g. Japan where the whole highway network is privatized and tolled)

The largest energy producer in Finland is state-owned and most cities own their own energy production. What’s the big deal?

So what's wrong with that phrase?

Norway collectively owns its 'key economic drivers'.

Is that a bad thing?, they're still capitalistic, just with better respect for its people.

You probably collectively own things via the stock market too.

"Democratic Socialism" is VERY different from "Social Democracy"

In socialism with supposed democracy, where the state owns the means of production and supposedly the workers supposedly have a say about everything, they actually end up with a say about nothing (at least not without greasing the right palms in the inevitably corrupt system that arises).

In Social Democracy, capitalism is the underlying system, where corporations and workers can own means of production, but it operates under sufficient regulation that the excesses and systemic failures of captialism (e.g., failure to prevent Tragedies Of The Commons, tendency towards monopoly and excess concentration of power, consistent tendency to abuse and impoverish workers, etc.), you end up with successful systems like Northern Europe.

The two are very different, and we need to hold the DSA people to the latter and not let them sneak in the former.

You are wrong.

The term you are looking for is communism, not socialism.

Nordic countries are practicing Democratic Socialism.

DSA is not communist.

Why are you spreading this crap when it takes 2 neurons and a few searches to find out you are wrong?

You are mistaking Democratic Socialism (of DSA fame) for Social Democracy practiced by Nordic countries.

Different beasts as I explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404166

Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are the same thing

Really?

So tell me how Social Democrat parties of Denmark or Sweden views on capitalism same thing as DSA views on it stated in DSA sites I linked elsewhere?

Do these social democrats also want to replace capitalism?

nobody wants to replace capitalism, you're being absurd

I’m observing a pattern - you don’t like to answer questions, provide evidence or context.

Youre statements peak at a single sentence with minimal signal. You’re not interested in conversations or debates

You make outrageously wrong claims with no intention of debate, I'm returning your profound deference in kind.

Skimming through your comments, your only goal is to demonize DSA because they go against your views with respect to Israel.

It doesn't matter to you if what you're saying is true or not, you are not looking for a debate.

I reference direct statements by DSA made on their own websites that they aim to

* replace capitalism [0]

* own means of production [0]

I state the fact that Scandinavian/Nordic countries are Social Democracies (embracing capitalism) and Not Democratic Socialist countries.

You state that Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism is the same.

I ask you "tell me how Social Democrat parties of Denmark or Sweden views on capitalism same thing as DSA view" [1]

And your response is "nobody wants to replace capitalism, you're being absurd reply" inspite of official DSA statements that i linked to in [0]

My 2 points stand:

* DSA is pretty clear about its desires to replace capitalism [0] and own means of production [0]

* Nordic countries are Social Democracies. THey embrace capitalism, not aim to replace it (as its stated on DSA's own site). Your statement is factually wrong, unless you can find it in your heart to prove me wrong.

I dont know why you felt that bringing Israel discussion about clear socialist goals of DSA will help your argument whatever that is, but try to keep focus about systematic issues with DSA, not geo-political.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404545

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49405182

They themselves literally say out loud that they want to abolish our existing institutions. If you want to debate that point, go debate the DSA candidates themselves.

You're wrong again.

You must live under a rock. A quick search will find you plenty of video of politicians talking about defunding things, cancelling Thanksgiving, abolishing ICE or the FDA or the Senate, undercutting small businesses, introducing rationing, etc, etc.

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