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Comment by MaxHoppersGhost | Hacker News Reader

I'm glad you work remote because to be candid you sound like a miserable person to be stuck in an office with.

This right here is the crux of the argument.

WFH people want to do work, take meetings, and just overall get things done. Sure they also want to be at home so they can use a 15 min break between meetings to start laundry.

RTO people want to do work, take meetings, and overall get things done while there are others around them working. RTO people need other people around them constantly.

This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office.

WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

I prefer working from an office and I also work on the subway and at home. I actually prefer people _do not_ watch me work. I am introverted, but there are benefits to working in person that aren't replaceable over Zoom. (There are also trade-offs!)

Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone? It's so mysterious to me. Not everyone who wants to WFH or RTO have the same needs, perspectives, trade-offs, living situations, working styles, etc. The world has nuance.

> Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone

Without unsolicited personal opinions, there wouldn't be much conversation. And what then, have only people state verifiable truths? Only permit the exchange of pure fact?

Not speaking in hard generalities.

> WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

This is just not true. It makes a sweeping statement about two groups of people with certain preferences, then assertions about how they work / what they want.

People can express opinions, while investigating (or at least leaving room for) nuance.

My company just had an RTO announcement and I kid you not the head of HR said “well I like working from the office” as if that’s a reason why we should as well.

> WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office.

You're completely leaving out that WFHers are forcing the RTOers to work in a completely different (and in my opinion worse) way to accommodate the WFHers.

> WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

Or RTOers want to be able to collaborate with their co-workers while WFHers want to sneak away to do laundry and make it impossible to communicate with them in an efficient manner? I don't need them around just to work, I need them around so that I can have a dialogue with them, instead of sending a message that may or may not be answered this week because I have no idea if they are even "at work". I'm exaggerating, but I hope you were too.

First, RTOers can work with other RTOers, right? Or are you suggesting RTOers can’t do their job unless everyone is in the office? Because that is the exact problem I’m describing.

Second, if WFHers aren’t available and responsive, they should be put on a PIP and then let go if they don’t improve. WFH is not an excuse to not work. With my team, everyone responds quickly. If they don’t, they don’t last very long.

> This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office.

If you work from home and I work from the office, you're forcing me to collaborate with you using remote tools, which is just remote work with a longer commute. In this sense, (some) WFHers are only happy when they force RTOers into Microsoft Teams.

Of course, there's a much better compromise available to us. I could be on an in-office team with others like me, you could be on a WFH team with others like you, and we'd all be happy.

Many workplaces are global. Even when I’m in the office, I’m still on Teams meetings all day long.

Your conclusion is exactly my point. People should work on teams that fit their work habits. Where that falls down is when management hires for WFH but then asks those workers to RTO.

> WFH people want to do work

Debatable. They take issue with getting dressed and acting appropriately in an office, I can't imagine they're particularly hard working people given a commute is a hard no for them. You'll complain you haven't got time to do the work next

And if you're job can be done without anyone needing to speak to you, or you to them, it's probably not that important and ripe for AI to take off your hands, so enjoy it while you can autist

I’ve witnessed it first hand, WAY more work gets done when people WFH than in the office. The constant stop bus, or coffee breaks, or “let’s walk over to the other building for this meeting” taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time.

The WFH team I manage is one of the most capable and hardest working teams I’ve ever been on. You can take that outdated attitude elsewhere, thank you.

We collaborate all day long on teams. Various work focused and non work focused chats are constantly happening.

Ive also witnessed this first hand and had the opposite experience. A significant number of WFH employees were not doing the work expected of them. Yes this is a management issue, but many companies have crappy management.

> taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time.

I love how you couldn't think of an example of work other than a teams meeting lol is that all you do WFH then?

Yes. I work in tech and I'm either doing focused work or in meetings. This is the case regardless of in office or at home.

What are you doing exactly? Building railroads? Tech is meetings and coding.

The water cooler hero over here, when's the next pizza lunch boss?

I like both. What do we do now?

You stop purposefully ignoring the scenario just to pick a fight.

You do what you want without forcing others to do what you want.

It’s pretty simple, in my opinion.

Easier said than done if doing what I have want is only hiring office workers, then suddenly the wfh people aren't happy.

They want both the specific job and the ability to work from home.

There is a zero sum element to it.

The best solution is for workplaces to be up front and consistent in their policies and let people select in or out.

I'm not convinced that people who want to work from home are magically motivated differently by work and to do work than others... They're human, better and worse, like everyone else.

its not magic its just some nature and nurture. i like wfh bc most of my relationships growing up were distracting troublemakers and slackers. when i had time to myself i noticed i actually accomplished things and then when i worked with others i ended up doing their work too

other people grew up with healthy, cooperative relationships

That's how I know that all the people who like RTO are just lying to force everyone back to office. Since the lack of loud noises, interruptions, distractions etc. make me much more productive in HO, the same must be true for everyone else.

I think your comment is an example of why lots of people prefer to work remotely: the 'enforced fun' of it all.

Why is it a problem for you that they don't enjoy eating in canteens? Why does working with you mean signing up to be your best friend?

It's like being taken hostage with people who are pretending to like it. Meanwhile some of them have personal lives so bad or they're so afraid of being alone that they genuinely do like it.

Why so cynical? Some of my best friends and favorite people are people who I initially met as random coworkers.

You just don’t require 40 weeks in an office to make friends. You can, and should, go to social gatherings outside of work. Including ones where you’re exclusively surrounded by complete strangers.

Friendships often form out of shared experiences. Work is one kind of shared experience. So is joining a club, or going to a concert.

I think a lot of people don’t do those things, because they’re so tired from work. Which is understandable, but then you have to make friends at work. And that’s really not ideal.

I'm sure there are great friendships among slaves and prisoners too, that doesn't mean you should be thankful to be one.

Maybe being freed from the slave mindset is the reason you haven't had the same. Maybe.

You can schlep to the office every day and contort yourself into a freedom mindset and I'll work remote with my natural mindset. We can both be happy.

I have a remote job. I get to have this one because I made contacts at a previous job. Good luck in the job market correction.

me too, but its the vast minority of all companies i have been in the past 35 years. i don't want to sit in a room or even building with the rest of the drones of whom i have no clue what they are doing there expect burning money and wasting time of others.

but sure there are enough exceptions to turn up once in a blue moon to have drinks with the new peeps who seem nice on slack.

Whats cynical about it? You work with people who you have befriended, probably because you have the sort of personality where that works.

Not everyone is like that. It's not cynicism but a fact of life that some people do not get on with people you find in tech companies, IT departments, offices, etc or do not enjoy the environment.

You should examine your own narrow view of this and realize that there are many types of people out there other than people like you. That someone else experiences life in a different way isn't a personal failing.

My view is narrow, yet you're siding with OP who is categorically defining team building activities, company BBQs, pizza days, etc as nonsense? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> Meanwhile some of them have personal lives so bad or they're so afraid of being alone that they genuinely do like it.

One of the definitions of cynical is "bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic". I'm not trying to argue that my way is the only way, I'm just pointing out that some people (me) have fulfilling personal lives AND enjoy chit-chatting with coworkers in-person sometimes.

I think we can all agree that remote work is great for some people. And we should be able to agree that some people genuinely enjoy things about working in an office too.

you sound like a miserable person to be stuck in an office with

How much extra do you get paid to drink the corporate koolaid? I ask this because some of the most miserable people I know were the kind of people that were all-in on serving the corporation at all costs only for it to burn through everything else in their life, especially when they get laid off.

Do miserable people not deserve to make a living? Companies should be able to accommodate their disabilities by making sure they are not around others who may be affected by their presence.

Unreasonable accommodation. Fire them.

Being miserable is now a disability? Seriously?

That reminds me of a sign I saw in a handicapped parking spot: "Being an asshole is not a disability".

Misery is a symptom of depression, which is classified as a disability.

Coughing is a symptom of many things, yet you cannot conclude I have cancer from a cough.

I should know better than to make statements in dumb topics like this. It's like dipping a net into a pool and just filtering out weird takes like this one.

Honestly I framed this poorly, sorry. I wasn't arguing for accommodating all miserable people but my comment implied an extreme position I don't believe.

Thanks, I also took it in the least charitable way - which also wasn't fair. Thanks for being cool.

Why is it a weird take?

Nothing they said suggested they'd be disruptive.

If someone does their work properly, and you're upset at their lack of sociability, you're the problem.

People who feel they need to enjoy the company of their co-workers in any way are the insufferable ones. Do you need something work related from me? Great! I can probably help. Otherwise leave me the fuck alone. Why? Because dealing with the weird, annoying reactions of the 99.999999999% of the population I do not get on with becomes very tiresome very quickly.

Pitching yourself as a machine that takes in requirements and spits out work is a daring proposition in today's technological environment.

Wow, it's a good thing you work from home. We don't want you roaming around in polite society!

Miserable because we don’t enjoy fake company bullshit like team building lunches and dumbass nontechnical managers that know less than we do but get paid more? Have fun drinking that company koolaid.

What a leap of judgement

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