Hacker News Reader

Comment by _6wbq | Hacker News Reader

For the elders here, what are the actual ways to not live under the rule of an industrial clock?

I’m not talking about starting your own company get rich quick scheme or moving into the woods (unless..), but really, I don’t see many ways about it. You could move somewhere rural, lower expenses, but then you are socially isolated to an extent. So, move to where people are, oh but then the only way to support the lifestyle is a standard job with security. Having a family is a whole different requirement almost making it “irresponsible” to not have stable income, hence time restrictions. Then again there seem to be a small population of explorers who live radically different lives or simply try to enjoy their work or switch jobs. Really struggling with this question.

View on HN

You'd have to go back nearly 2000 years, at the very least, to find a time when civilizations weren't living under the tyranny of time keeping devices. Here's a poem from 195AD Rome satirizing the tyranny of the sun dial: https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/time/hacked-days

Leaving civilization is probably your only option. Other than joining a handful of remote tribes, or living as a recluse, I don't think there's anyway to completely shield oneself from the tyranny.

Run your own business that provides a service that isn't on a time clock. It's much easier to get a job making sandwiches or teaching kids or working in a factory. Doing your own thing is harder. Maybe you write books, maybe you write copy or edit books for others. Maybe you are a contract software engineer and work on your own schedule. Maybe you do some job over the internet.

> You could move somewhere rural, lower expenses, but then you are socially isolated to an extent.

I got more social interactions the first week I moved to my house built in the middle of nowhere eastern europe than in my 10 years in a western EU capital. Small communities are much more alive than gigantic ones. You do lose some convenience, but it's not as bad is it used to be, for exemple there is a 24/7 automated supermarket 10min from my middle of nowhere village, 5g everywhere, etc.

> Small communities are much more alive than gigantic ones.

Jane Jacobs [1] observed that people don't live in cities, they live in neighbourhoods (e.g., [2]): it's the few blocks around you that you most interact with and get to know in urban living. The folks that live on your street and the parents/kids of the school(s) your kid(s) go to especially.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neighbourhoods_in_Toro...

[2] https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/ne...

> Small communities are much more alive than gigantic ones.

My experience is that after a point it gets annoying, and then oppressive. The proximity in smaller communities can help when everything is right. Neighbours can check on you, bring your kids to school, this sort of things. But at some point personal issues arise, and then it’s impossible to get out of them. That’s how you end up with family feuds over centuries because at some point someone did not like someone else.

Also, it’s nice if you correspond to what the community expects. If you don’t and you don’t build your own niche very quickly you get typecast and then outcast. Humans can be vile and petty, even in small communities. It gets particularly hairy if your bully is somewhat popular locally. Ask me how I know.

Anyway, I much prefer larger communities. I can still make friends if I want to, and if we have a fight it’s not the end of the village.

>That’s how you end up with family feuds over centuries because at some point someone did not like someone else.

This is a take it or leave it issue that will come down to personal preference.

The small town mentality knows that this is a possibility, and give it due deference. This is why everyone smiles and nods at almost everyone, almost always. Never cut anyone off. Accept gifts graciously. Mow the elderly neighbors' lawn, put the neighbors' trash out and bring it in if they forget. Do not mention sports, politics, religion, or intimacy unless you are in familiar company, and certainly not if said familiar company holds opposing views.

It does make for a bit of stagnation in that new social trends will always be more slowly adopted, if at all, due to the desire not to offend.

Imagine driving for years on end without anyone ever cutting you off, and people letting you cut if you look to be in a hurry. People offering comfort when you look down. Relative strangers cooking for you when you're sick. All done because they know you to be the kind of person who'd do the same if the situation were flipped because you've shown yourself to be that kind of person.

It's great if you like it, but if it's not for you, it's definitely not for you.

Interesting. Do you feel constrained at all? That does sound nice and much more peaceful. I think it’s hard to imagine the change when many have been sold the story of moving to the big city becoming successful, living an exciting life in your 20s, 30s.

It really depends on what you want from life. If you value gadgets, convenience, going for an impromptu beer with friends on a thursday evening then it's a net negative. If you value peace, space, slowing down, nature then it's very nice. Less pollution, less noise, etc. I couldn't afford to buy a two bedrooms flat where I lived, now I own a 3 floor house, a garden big enough to feed my family and neighbours during peak season, life is good, can't complain

Small communities have the nasty habit of turning incestuous- sometimes literally.

Some of the greatest works in my country's literary canon are writers dissecting the rural village life. Existential dread indeed.

> Small communities have the nasty habit of turning incestuous- sometimes literally.

This isn't 1926 anymore, education and the ease of movement cured these problems by large. You can go shag someone from the next village after a 10min drive, you don't need a half a day walk anymore.

Rural communities tend to be more religious and conservatives as well.

However if you're also very traditional and practice their faith, you'll fit right in. At least in Iran it's like that.

There's going to be relationship issues regardless due to human nature but those disputes are easier to solve in the local Church / Mosque / what have you.

I know because my dad retired near a rural area from Lahijan and has become much more religious sense. but at least he's at peace..

But I digress, all that so that it's just not a place for someone with "out of box" ideas.

this is true I have noticed that in rural africa too vs any surburb like city in america.

"Really struggling with this question."

Many do, but there are also many unique solutions. Work part time. Home office. Live rural, but close to a railwail station that brings you to the city quickly. Limit your expenses, check what you really need. Do freelancing, where you often can decide when you will do the work, ..

"If thou wilt make a man happy, add not unto his riches but take away from his desires" Epicurus

It’s called society and it’s really hard to fight against. I’d suggest you look for a way to fit in that suits you.

Old guy checking in. This is the best reply I could find that matches my view.

You might not escape but you can breathe better air if you try.

Do you need a big house, do you need a shiny new vehicle, do you need to eat at restaurants twice a week?

Life can be more your way if you have more money to make it your way.

It was the very first lesson we had in economics in high school. The difference between a need and a want. Nowadays most people have a lot of wants far beyond any needs.

Don't live for the weekend. Why 2 out of 7 days when you have another 5. Don't put off til the weekend. Don't put off til annual vacation. Don't put off til retirement. Live life every day.

As for each day, organize around living your life. For me, that means working a schedule from the other coast so I sleep when my body craves it, and not fighting it to be productive when I simply am running on reserves

Have a look at ERE. Don't get fooled by the snake oil sounding url. I ignored it for years because of that, but it's a sound framework to help you answer the question you are asking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Lund_Fisker

https://earlyretirementextreme.com/

Society and your past decisions will put you on rails. You can get off them, but there will be sacrifices.

I will always gladly post this. Not because I think it's good advice or because I think Ran is a person to emulate, but because I think it encourages one to think differently about life, wants, needs, and responsibilities.

https://ranprieur.com/essays/dropout.html

> I’m not talking about starting your own company get rich quick scheme

You will be better off staying under the yoke and obeying your masters. If you think starting your own company is some "get rich quick scheme", it means they have trained you well in what are your proper limits.

Aren't these effectively the same thing? In order to get the benefits of living/working as a group/in a society, there needs to be common elements; aggregating by location/space and by time go hand in hand. If the farmers' market is in the park on Sundays, you can hardly expect to show up at a different time or place and still participate. Regularity, in time or place, is the most common and scalable way to coordinate. The way to avoid that is to remove the need to coordinate, but then, by definition, you are alone.

I didn’t consider that. What I maybe meant is feeling owned by time rather than existing in it. In the past time wasn’t even a concept really. You just went about your life, realized you changed and the sun moved, but nothing like we have now with days of the week, constantly knowing the minute of the day, calendars locking us in months ahead of a day arriving, etc. I believe community can definitely thrive without clocks, however I understand your point.

> You just went about your life, realized you changed and the sun moved, but nothing like we have now with days of the week, constantly knowing the minute of the day, calendars locking us in months ahead of a day arriving, etc.

If you have no other responsibilities, you can choose to treat your days off like this: do some activity (walking, hiking, camping, cycling, paddling/sailing if you're near water) where there is no 'business hours'. Start when you want, eat when you're hungry, head back in when you get tired or if it you don't want to deal with the dark.

After you're done work on a workday you can do the same thing: what does it matter when you eat, or when you go to bed (as long as you're not late the next day)? Stop wearing a watch or looking at a phone (put them in a pouch) and you can certainly lose track of time easily and 'free wheel' your evenings.

However I suspect this won't be as 'fun' as you think, at least in the longer term as a lifestyle (maybe for short bursts): I read and watch information on personal finance, and most videos about retirement recommend structure to the day, as otherwise you very quickly get blassé about the whole thing. Even communities that are isolated from larger society, like convents and monasteries, had structure to life, often centred around prayer:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ora_et_labora

In a world with such strong async communication and logistics, surely this is less of a constraint than ever.

There are a bunch of fairly normal activities that are not specifically M-F. Landording and contract programing for example. And a variety of specialist services, like I've got a friend who delivers race cars and specialist vehicles as a kind of taxi service which he got into because he likes that scene.

Sadly, as soon as you can conjure the concept of time and schedules, you will yourself end up under one, either self-imposed or imposed by others.

It will creep slowly on you and before you realize you will be late to do the laundry or whatnot.

Having a schedule and making so many things predictable and optimizable is just too advantageous to just not do it.

This can be done, and in major cities as well. You get a tent, and some fentanyl and just don't go to work anymore.

You guys get a weekend?

Rough data according to chatgpt: 165–175 countries: predominantly 5/2 15–25 countries: predominantly 6/1 ~5–15 countries: genuinely mixed / difficult to classify

> what are the actual ways to not live under the rule of an industrial clock?

Become a farmer. Live by the Sun and the weather instead of the factory or office clock.

Spend far below your means. Don't scale your spending with your earnings.

You know all that shit you feel compelled to buy? You know that house that's about 2000 to 3,000 square feet more than you need? And all that excess food you eat that turned you into a fat ass? That car you drive that is three feet too long and 15-50k more than you need to spend?

But yes, being anti consumerist, even to a mild extent, is "radical". In particular, alas, to the vast vast vast majority of mates

Reply on news.ycombinator.com