They generally:
* Wear tires surprisingly quickly
* Absolutely suck in any form of weather or terrain condition (dirt, rain, etc.)
* Have ~20% less efficiency than any other drive form.
But, they are easy, and they do work.
That being said, having driven electric bikes for a while, here in France they're ridiculously limited in speed and power. 25km/h limit on flat land usually makes sense (except on long straight lines), but when you get climbing even slightly you get down to ~10km/h and have to provide more effort. I guess that's where the 750/1250W 70Nm unrestrained motor comes in handy, and if you live in a place with lots of small hills the choice is either that kind of motor or a car, not the 1000€-total Decathlon/Carrefour electric bike.
There is some sort of complacent attitude that results from, what is normally a road-only moped device, exploiting the privileges of the bike paths. I hope this law changes - I ride a 'normal' electric moped and motorbike also, so I guess I'm a bit biased, but I'd like to see those 45km/h limited e-mopeds classified for road only. It makes no sense to let them use the bicycle paths, in my opinion. They're road-ready, so let them stay on the roads.
Just a few quick examples, you can find more with your favourite AI/search engine
16500 bikes confiscated - https://www.ilent.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/09/12/ilt-legt-besl... https://nos.nl/artikel/2483770-inspectie-waarschuwt-voor-ill... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1ndpf3z/i_just_pai... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/sep/04/britain...
To compare: a tour de france runner outputs 400-500W on mountain climbs while keeping up to 20-25km/h. So a 500W motor (plus 100W power output from yourself) should be enough for smaller climbs!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48761621
DonHopkins 44 days ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]
Enviolo stepless bicycle automatic transmission (never manually shift again, accelerate while continuously shifting under load), with a carbon fiber belt drive (maintainance free, silent, never get grease on your pants or hands again), and Bosch Performance Line mid-motor (strong zippy performance from the geniuses who paid a €90 million fine for Dieselgate), plus GPS tracker with "recovery service" (required for insurance).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQrgKBQrkag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI
https://www.koga.com/en/enviolo-gear-hub
https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/e-bikes/evia-pro-automatic?fra...
It's a dream bike, optimized for comfort and city riding, but Koga is not available in the US, though.
Here's an American bike that has similar features (not as nice as the high-end Koga Evia Pro Automatic though), the Harley Davidson Rush/CTY (step through model is easiest to mount/unmount/ride):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjN8RN9g7Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoX9S5UhETE
The Enviolo Automatic also come in a heavy duty version paired with high performance motors for bakfiets (cargo bikes), for 3-4 children, big dogs, and groceries:
https://batavus.com/en-nl/products/fier-3-bbfn3
https://www.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
Edit:
Fair, they're ideal for city bikes, stop-and-go traffic, and the flat Dutch landscape where they're produced, where the biggest "mountains" you encounter are the bridges over canals. Their city model has 310%, trekking 380%, and the new utility hub has 400% gear range, which you can use on a normal bike, bakfiets, or speed pedelec.
If shifting gears takes to much of your attention, I'm concerned for all of us, and why do you need to pay more attention to riding "effortlessly"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load
Have you ever ridden a bike with a geared derailleur, and forgotten to shift into low gear at an intersection, or had to suddenly stop before you had a chance to shift into low gear, so it's more difficult getting started again?
Did you notice how it's impossible to shift while you're stopped, and how tricky it is to get it from high back into low while you're starting, especially up hill, and how you can't shift while you're applying force, so you have to push yourself forward instead of pedaling to get it rolling enough to downshift while gently pedaling without accelerating?
A continuous hub fixes those problems, and an automatic transmission shifts you into low when you stop (even if you're not moving), and smoothly and continuously shifts back up while you're accelerating, and the continuous hub allows you to apply power while it's shifting (note I didn't say "changing gears" -- it's continuous, and doesn't have gears. It has planets and fluid instead. It can shift while it's stopped, and accelerate while it's shifting.
You have a lot more important things to worry about when you're accelerating from a stop at a busy intersection than pushing off and shifting without applying acceleration and only pedaling forcefully once you've finished shifting into low gear.
If you're riding a bakfiets (cargo bike) with your kids and a dog in the box, then you definitely have things you need to worry about more than shifting gears, and because of the mass and precious cargo, it's even more important to be able to accelerate from a stop without performing a derailleur dance in the middle of a busy intersection.
It's a trick you have to learn just like using the parking break when starting a manual transmission car facing up hill. Manual transmissions have a much higher cognitive load in both cars and bikes.
This kind of stuff should be intuitive if you've ever ridden a bike with more than one gear, or driven a stick shift car. Sure it gives you "more control", but more control = higher cognative load, and you're probably not a NASCAR race car driver who needs to optimize for control.
It's all explained here:
The Enviolo stepless CVP technology explained:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI
Is enviolo the best internally geared hub for eBikes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vob5Rb4IKsw
He talks about shifting when you're stopped at 2:32.
If I'm moving the bike by directly motivating the drivetrain with my foot, all this talk about "more control" feels very silly because I am already directly exposed to whatever is happening on the chain and at the wheels. I don't ride an ebike but because my tires are skinny I can definitely slip out if I start too fast in a low gear. The "fix" for that isn't to pick a different gear or rely on some fancy shifter to try and increase my mechanical advantage, it's to feel the tires slipping at my feet and just... pedal slower.
Ditto for going up hills. Is "the bike got hard to pedal" cognitive load or literal load?
I get the argument for riding a cargo bike but IME cargo bikes are almost always ebikes now because derailleur or not, not many people are going to accelerate quickly with kids and dog. Considering that fancy non-deraileur gearboxes cost nearly as much as cheap ebike conversion kits it seems like an uphill battle.
Yes, it's an annoyance, not an insurmountable obstacle. If one is bothered by it, there's the hub gear, invented more than 100 years ago.
In my experience with electric motors, yeah I can absolutely believe it. Electric motors aren't cheap!
I've ridden bikes with Bosch 65Nm motors and with a 80kg rider plus 20kg of cargo they're perfectly fine even up steep hills. As in 18kmph or more with only a moderate amount of effort from the rider. Your bike was really underpowered (50Nm?).
Ebikes are pedal assist, power limited, and limited to only assist up to a certain speed. You can go as fast as you're able, but if you're above (commonly) 25km/h the motor won't help you. They're allowed anywhere you're allowed a non-assisted bicycle.
Electric motorbikes may be limited by the manufacturer in order to achieve a certain license class, but once you get past the low power classes, they're only as limited as their petrol cousins. They're only allowed on roads.
Any middle ground, including things that look like bicycles but don't require the rider to peddle, fall either into the "electric motorbike" category or into the "not roadworthy" category. Riding them without a proper license, insurance, and equipment is illegal.
Somewhat unfortunately, much of the press seems to want to class the non-roadworthy motorised vehicles as a special case of "ebike" rather than the general case of "motorbike".
(And to your first point: yes there are speed limits but it's fairly common for cars and motorbikes to be able to go much faster than the limit. In first gear, even, for motorbikes.)
However bimotal is not that nice - adding a motor to rear triangle alters weight distribution and adds unsprung weight. Also unlike actual nice MTB e-bikes it cannot use chain/casssete for gearing, so gearing is fixed at the factory. If you’re used to nice bikes you will want your ebike to be dialed in just right.
One place where it makes sense is as an alternative to shuttling on forest roads / lifts for downhill-focused riding. F you’re going strictly downhill you can move the motor to the backpack after finishing the climb to reduce unsprung weight. This opens up a large number of trails where forest roads are blocked to car traffic. It also allows dh riding on trail where motor bikes are prohibited.
How nice should one's bike be that you'd rather turn it into a mediocre ebike for the price of buying a good ebike?
I have a ebike that cost ~1500 in 2018 and is probably comparable to what $2k would buy you these days. It's very heavy and while the drivetrain is repairable, there are important pieces of it that I would struggle to repair/replace if they died today.
I have a steel touring bike that's significantly lighter, has standard sized parts that can be repaired, replaced and upgraded (many of which I have already upgraded in the last 15 years) and fits me like a glove. If I didn't own an ebike and you asked me whether I'd rather spend $2k buying something like my ebike or adding a 750W motor to my Surly, I'd upgrade my touring bike.
A proper e-bike needs to be designed as an e-bike from the beginning.
Either it’s unsprung mass or a liability, and, well, actual e-bikes have converged on BB motors for a number of reasons.
Expensive as f though. Also the gear-thingy looks proprietary (=expensive).
It was so bad that the rear wheel ended up getting bigger at the end of the race, as it picked up rubber deposited by the front wheel!
Keep it mind it was custom bikes though, the front tire just had to finish the race, they used a roller made of hard materials and knurled. I don't remember the reason, but it probably had to do with the fact their engines were quite a bit more powerful than traditional ones despite having the same displacement.
* you cannot install them on bikes with a rear rack. Here most city bikes have them.
Which makes me wonder about the cleaning after it rained..
On the flats, I get no benefit since the motor cuts off at my normal cruising speed of some 20 mph. It just feels like a solid bike in that mode, a bit heavy, of course.
I have taken it on a few regular non-commute rides as a test and must say it did not make me lazy or weak, or suffer less. Easy of riding is not me. In the end, it is the rider that makes the ride.
I don't have a problem with them riding an eRoad bikes, I like that they can keep coming out with us, but like you say I wouldn't want to ride one myself.
I suspect this depends on the weather in your area - road cycling clubs near me often require mudguards for "winter club rides".
If you see someone with mudguards on a road bike it's a sign they're a proper cyclist.
I don't think you're allowed to entry audax events without guards and you definitely won't be allowed on a club run without them. Getting a face full of oily road water for the guy in front is not exactly fun. Even small clip on "racing blades" will get you a sniffy look.
And yes, once your winter 'proper road bike' has mud guards, tyres with treads, and an all-weather-riding design people might start calling it an 'adventure bike' or 'gravel bike' instead.
If you google images of something like Redbull Hardline pretty much all the bikes you see will have at least one front guard.
That's because no one wants a face full of mud at the wrong moment.
Bikes are sold without mudguards, and the aftermarket ones are flimsy and don't fit very well. (The steel ones that came with my 1983 Schwinn frame being the exception).
"Who this is for" is the great un-answered question in American cycling. The reason is that our biggest untapped market is people who don't ride at all. The marketing looks like lifestyle marketing: Here's what's wrong with cycling and how we solve it. Here's what you will look like.
They will even steal a helmet off a parked bike and that's way cheaper. Just look how many helmets are left on bikes in different parts of different towns (because there is literally no advantage to take your helmet anywhere other than for theft protection)
*At the very least, you have to worry about Jackie Chan "borrowing" your wheels for a wacky chase scene. Based on my knowledge of Hong Kong cinema, this must happen at least once per week. Dude is a menace and a fiend.
A Skarper system [0] that drives through an adapted brake rotor sounds [1] like it is the way to go if really want [2] a well thought close to non-permanent conversion solution.
[1] https://road.cc/ebiketips/review_v2/skarper-ebike-drive-syst... .
[2] Compared to other conversion options they are currently expensive https://road.cc/ebiketips/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e...
I recall a wheel-mounted rotor system from a few years back that did address theft, tire-wear, and weather, but it suffered from far too little torque and very limited battery life.
Simply bolting things down harder is still defeated by a battery powered grinder.
That's into the absurdist territory, but it reflects the real pattern of behavior. People do go around committing petty crimes for various reasons.
I think there are many other and better things to try than the repeated failure of trying to catch and punish crimes even more harshly.
The US tried "tough on crime" approaches, what has it resulted in? 25% of the entire world's prison population and it still has higher crime rates than its peer nations.
I think it's ok to define "survive" as an addict who needs (<-also loosely defined) a fix.
You don't generally commit serious white collar crime, tax fraud or do crypto grifts to survive. For petty street crime, I don't really see any other motivation.
Phew, good to hear. Here I thought it would be a hard and complex problem, with lots of unknown unknowns, difficult political compromises, a generation-spanning efforts and many potential solutions with uncertain outcomes, partially contradicting each other.
Instead, we just have to make society better. So, what's step 1?
And if you are still worried about theft in the mean time, you could try looking at wage thefts which has a value greater than all other forms of theft combined.
That would make society better, I agree, but I don't see how that would lead to a reduction in theft, or crime in general.
> And if you are still worried about theft in the mean time, you could try looking at wage thefts […]
I'm not worried about wage theft, no. I am worried about theft of my personal property, though. And I notice that you haven't proposed any credible path to reducing it, beyond an incredibly generic "make society better", whatever that means and however you want to achieve that.
Do we have any sources that people are stealing to survive? What definition of surviving are we using here?
So once you take them off the streets for a couple of years, or decades for the more hardened ones, it's fine. It has an added benefit of breaking criminal networks so the future adepts have no place to fence the stolen goods.
I also think you have no idea how much it costs per prisoner per year.
I also think you have no idea how much harder it is for someone to get a job, housing, a partner, etc after they have a conviction. Or how much whatever life they had falls apart, which includes partners, friends, family. And guess what happens when you strip away all of someone's social connections? They lose that safety net, and are now dependent upon whatever society as whole provides. And in the US we have people saying "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" non-ironically, not realizing the whole fucking point of that phrase is that recovering from poverty in the US is extremely difficult.
That money is better spent on helping people who are not able to afford basic necessities, because that is why a lot of people commit property crime.
I suggest you actually open up some studies on this subject because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Or just open up a chart reflecting the economy over the decades and compare it with property crime rates.
The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world by both headcount and percentage of the population. How's that working for us? We have one of the higher property and violent crime rates among developed nations. Far higher than nations where criminals are imprisoned for rehabilitation, not to punish. Things like giving them a cell that looks like a bedroom, not pen in an animal shelter.
Do you have anything to back this up? You think people are stealing because they lack basic necessities? How are you defining this?
The recidivism rate for property crime is higher than violent crime, so it seems plausible that the same is true for theft: https://counciloncj.org/recidivism_report/
In the UK police will ask the value of the property stolen and use that to decide whether to do anything. Low-value is under a few £k.
No, it's actually solved by providing social safety net programs and managing the economy to have entry level accessible jobs that pay a living wage. People steal because they run out of other options. The cost of flock contracts would be far better spent on food pantries, job counseling, emergency housing...
There is nearly zero correlation between the number of police and the amount of crime.
Making the search process easier makes locating stolen stuff becomes more of an office job that’s cheaper to do so the math works out better.
https://www.techspot.com/news/113381-google-ai-told-people-f...
AngryData> No one goes around stealing bikes just because they want to do bad things.
But people go around stealing Flock cameras because they want to do good things.
Sure you can use all number of locks, security bolts, and stripping the bike down yourself every time you leave it, but it’s sucks. You’d rather public spaces just be safe.
If there's lot of theft and you can't store bike at a secure place - have a cheap bike.
not sure the game you want to go with examples
But the rule is good. Can't say I always adhere to it, but used to loose a lot of stuff , and thanks to the rule, many wasn't that expensive.
When i was young all bicycles came with mud guard (then called "fenders") front and rear. Now they seem to be anathema.
Every bike I rode w/o fenders put a stripe of mud up my back!
Of course most bikes still come with fenders, but that's also a major limitation for this device: you've got to remove your rear fender. Maybe this device acts somewhat as a fender, but the site says you can't use it in heavy rain, exactly when you need that fender the most.
Here in Germany if you want to get a cheaper bicycle, other than flea markets, usually they make you mount the pedals yourself, doesn't have fenders, lights might also be missing, depending on the offer.
If, however, they are doing that for commuter bikes...
This is the approach if you go offers on regular supermarkets that also sell bicycles.
Personally I am never going to give more than 400 euros tops, for a new bicycle, it is either that or not much beyond 100 euros at a flea market.
Getting the bicycle stolen or worse, revenge damage when they fail to steal it, is not worth more than that.
You often don’t get pedals on new bikes because you have your favorite pedals that work for you and anything that’s included with the bike goes straight to the bin, because it’s useless trash. You don’t get fenders, because you don’t usually use those on any kind of sporty bike. They’re heavy, they don’t usually work that well, they are often hard to use in bikes with suspension with longer travel or and they can rattle or simply break and fall off if you ride hard. You don’t get lights and reflective elements, because they’re heavy plastic crap that breaks and falls off. If you often ride at night, you probably own some kind of night gear, high powered LEDs, reflective stickers or spokes…
And obviously once that is the norm for “bikes” in general, then why not save a few cents on supermarket bikes.
I don’t agree. After my last bike was stolen I decided to buy the cheapest Decathlon had to offer - 240 - for getting around town and there’s nothing unsafe about it. It’s heavy and has cheap components but everything works fine for light city cycling.
And from all places I lived in Europe, only around here this upselling seems to be a thing.
Not everyone needs Apple priced bicycles, that get as easily stolen as a 50 € from the flea market.
I'm not in the market for this, but I am in the market for making my cargo bike electric. Having to slow down at a traffic light and then start from zero absolutely sucks. It goes very slow, it is rough, and you won't have time. I'd use it just for that specific use-case.
And not all hub motors are low-power. You can get Chinese ones with insane power output. (5000W! … just remember that Europe has strict power restrictions on e-bike motors.)
It has three wheels. Two smaller ones at front, one back. As such, I'd prefer to install the motor on the back. We do have that speed limit of 26 km/hour (my current e-bike has it as well), but since more force is required, the kit would need to know this as well.
I got it second hand, same as my e-bike. Otherwise, these aren't affordable for me. 6k EUR for a cargo e-bike is just insane IMO.
[1] https://www.babboe.nl/media/akeneo_connector/media_files/b/a...
But for people who'd reach the max 26 km/hour, if they'd need better brakes, then if they reach such speed manually (going downwards, for example) would suggest my current brakes aren't adequate either. But I'm not interested in going from to 20 km/hour ASAP. I am interested in getting a little of help at 0 km/hour going forward. After that, the electric part can go off for all I care.
It says on the website it will fit hardtails but not full sus, and that it isn't recommended on knobby tyres due to performance which isn't ideal either.
I could be wrong on all of this but those are just the concerns coming to mind as another mountain biker.
I think the tyres would limit the power output most. Probably quite annoying to have no rear mudguard in anything but the driest conditions. You’d be spraying a lot of crap up at the motor (and probably your back).
Attaching and detaching it looks relatively simple, though - removing it for downhills doesn’t look arduous. You could probably 3d print a clip for the frame.
Given the likely reduced power, and that the spec seems to be saying ‘500w peak, but 250w is sensible’ - probably up to the user’s needs whether the hassle is worth the extra watts per kilo. For those without mobility issues or longterm injuries, it’s usually best to optimise the rider rather than the bike for that.
I feel like off-road climbing would necessitate really wide, sensitive speed variance that this motor is likely not great at supporting. It strikes me that you’d want more direct pedal feedback.
Really fun bike design problem.
The biggest issue to me is the inability to put the seat all the way down given that's quite important, and obviously this won't work at all with a dropper post (which are fairly common nowadays), honestly actual ebikes are quite popular in the mountain biking scene at the minute and they seem like a significantly better fit to me.
I wonder how much torque the motor could put out though without putting a lot of wear on your (probably fairly soft material on mtb) tyres or slipping on knobby, possibly dusty/muddy, tyres; that itself might kill it off for offroad climbing.
Sorry but what? The only alternative to a FS frame is a hardtail. Where “hard” means that the rear wheel doesn’t move relative to the saddle. Your road bike is a hardtail.
If the rear wheel moves relative to the saddle, it’s full suspension (full meaning front and back)
That plus “already has a bike” is a massive market.
> That plus “already has a bike” is a massive market.
I imagine people who are elderly or differently abled would benefit more from an e-bike which is competitively priced to a bike + this device which will likely cost more than $1,000.
It’s a relatively big city geographically, and it’s really nice to be able to do 5 - 10 miles in jeans and a long-sleeved shirt and not arrive at a social event in a sweat. The tube is really hot (high 30s!) in the summer and generally quite unpleasant (fleas in the upholstery!). So cruising around in the sun is a really big urban niche for rentals. Those that do lots of miles per day seem more likely to own e-bikes - delivery guys who probably average 50+ miles/day will absolutely feel the difference in their legs, and need to control their tiredness for their safety.
There’s also the fact that many people have bike racks that are fine for traditional bikes but not the additional requirements necessary for some (most?) e-bikes such as weight and strength.
—-
Just because it doesn’t work for you and your specific worldview doesn’t mean others wouldn’t see value in it.
I ride an all-original 1970s steel-frame road bike, which seems like a prime candidate for this sort of product. I'm certain no sprocket-based design would fit it. I'd buy one of these if there was any way to lock it up.