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Comment by bambax | Hacker News Reader

> Recently, as I reached for the play button out of habit, I stopped. I thought: what if I just do this chore in silence today?

It seems most people today have headphones on all the time. I don't understand it. I'm not sure, but it would seem people hate their own voice?

I just love silence.

I can't work in anything but complete silence. In open spaces I wear earplugs. (If I'm not wearing earplugs it means I'm not doing much of anything ;-) That's one of the main benefits of remote work: at my home there is complete silence most of the time.

I need silence for many other activities too. Cooking, reading (of course), even driving.

In fact, I think my problem is the opposite: I just can't do two things at once. If I'm listening to something, then I can't be doing anything else.

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>most people today have headphones on all the time. I don't understand it. I'm not sure, but it would seem people hate their own voice?

I can't generalize for everyone and maybe some of those people you observe are just listening to music all day long.

In my circle, we have earphones all the time because we're listening to podcasts of news, tech industry commentary, macroeconomics and finance, etc. If one is working in an area where you're professionally rewarded by being curious about the changing world and being "plugged in", having "headphones on all the time" can help with staying up-to-date. Even with all that headphone time, there are still many hours in the day in personal silence. Laying in bed consolidating various thoughts before falling asleep. Standing in the shower. Reading blogs, etc. Before podcasts, we'd have to "waste time" sitting in front of the computer to catch up on the same material. Podcasts help us multitask.

Of course, not everybody needs (or wants) to have headphones on all the time. The mathematician Andrew Wiles pursued Fermat's Last Theorem for 30 years before finally solving it. He doesn't need a random podcast that talks about the Iran war and its downstream economic effects on manufacturing computer chips. That type of "useless" news would probably bore him.

>, even driving. In fact, I think my problem is the opposite: I just can't do two things at once. If I'm listening to something, then I can't be doing anything else.

It just depends on the threshold of mindless activity. If I'm driving in an unknown city with confusing one-way streets, I don't want a podcast voice yapping in my ear while I'm concentrating on reading the traffic signs. On the other hand, driving through 100 miles of monotonous corn fields on a highway means I can catch up on a backlog of podcasts.

My non expert and personal opinion is that multitasking for a long time is not a free lunch and could lead to burnout for most people

Yes, or the question is how much of both are you really engaged with and will remember at all. And then if you do, maybe the information was crap and not worthy of your attention anyway. I think anything really worth doing is worth doing at your 100%.

I love listening to audiobooks and such because it’s hard to find time to read. I mostly pick “fun” light to medium grade stuff like the stormlight archives, things that don’t demand my constant attention but aren’t as surface level as 90% of podcasts.

>multitasking for a long time is not a free lunch

The multitasking I was talking about was combining a mindless repetitive task that has low cognitive demands such as walking on a treadmill, yardwork raking leaves, driving on non-descript boring roads ... with listening to a podcast about whatever topics are interesting. The mind is engaged while the hands and feet doing the work are on autopilot. In those cases, it can be a "free lunch" in the sense that the curiosity-seeking mind got fed while whatever physical task that needed to get done also got done with less procrastination and dread.

I wasn't talking about trying to edit a Excel spreadsheet while listening and concentrating on a podcast about the politics and protests of datacenter buildouts.

It’s also under appreciated that its good to have the brain be bored and doing nothing. While you are being curious you aren’t thinking or contemplating or creating or imagining, just consuming that dopamine sink.

There is indeed quite a rich literature on the importance of boredom too. Basic links can be found on Wikipedia, Buddhism generally confronts it as well, and even research in psychology generally sees it as an important cognitive or emotional process. Sadly I feel we are losing sight of this.

I was a professional glass artist and auctioned all of my work. When you've done it for years, molten glass keeps the hands busy, but seems to leave the mind free - very easy to listen to a podcast or music while working.

But... if I didn't... I made substantially more money per hour. Partially by being faster, but mostly by being better.

On the surface, it felt like nothing was going on, simple as driving to work, but just having that headspace for intuition to happen made a big difference. Also, probably worth mentioning that I never did production work, only explorative, so perception/intuition was maybe overweighted.

I half suspect that it's true for all of life, though. It's just a lot harder to tell when you don't have the market telling you the value of how you spent your hours each week.

>its good to have the brain be bored and doing nothing. While you are being curious you aren’t thinking or contemplating or creating or imagining, just consuming that dopamine sink.

Those 2 sentences are based on 2 misconceptions/assumptions that need to be clarified.

1) That being bored is better than ingesting information. There seems to be a bias that self-dialogue and introspection is "superior" to external information. That depends on the person and so it's not always true. For some, when left to their own thoughts, they get into negative loops replaying past mistakes, or anguish about upcoming dilemmas ("Should I quit my job?", "Should I put mom in a nursing home?" etc) to which they don't have answers for. This is what some call "getting stuck in a rut" or "beating yourself up". It's inflicting self-harm. You can try to tell people "just don't think of negative thoughts and just sit there thinking of nothing". That doesn't work because it's like the joke of instructing people, "Don't think of an elephant!" -- which causes people to immediately think of an elephant. Instead of destructive loops, maybe a steady diet of external voices can help reframe things or just give the mind other ideas that are more productive and healthier to think about. To improve the quality of introspection, maybe look for quality external ideas.

2) My comment gave the impression I do nothing else but listen to podcasts and have no silent contemplative time. That's not what happens. For the first ~8 hours after I wake up, that's when my mind is most alert and mentally sharp. I do not "waste" this energy on listening to podcasts at all. That's when I do my contemplations, coding, etc. However, after the morning when my mind starts to drag... that's when it's ok to listen to audiobooks. Since I have to go outside to spread several cubic yards of mulch (mindless unpleasant housework), I queue up several podcasts to feed the mind while the work gets done. At that later point in the day, the brain is too fried to have deep introspection but it can still handle a lightweight podcast talking about trends in AI. Hopefully pick up some new ideas to bounce around the next morning's contemplative session. It's optimizing the schedule of activities to match the ups and downs in mental energy throughout the day. For neighbors who observe me, they just see that "he has headphones on all the time". Yes, because they don't shadow me at my desk in the morning when I don't.

I think there are some in this thread that assume the audiobooks/podcasts are "junk food" and the silent introspection is the "good and pure nourishment". That's not necessarily true. The opposite may be the case.

Yeah. We have limited capacity to use every day. So I try just keep the brain away from stimulation as much as I can and use it only on useful stuff.

> In those cases, it can be a "free lunch" in the sense that the curiosity-seeking mind got fed while whatever physical task that needed to get done also got done with less procrastination and dread.

The interesting thing is, exercise is more effective and beneficial when brain is focused on what body is doing, i.e. doing mindful exercise is more beneficial than giving brain a pacifier while body is doing something else.

On the "procrastination & dread": The brain has a daily limit on hard concentration. From my personal experience (during my Ph.D.) it tops around four hours most. I also find staying put very useful and beneficial, because after stuffing too much information into it, your brain needs to sift through and filter it. Also I find myself refining my previous ideas while staying put and doing nothing maybe except writing down what I'm refining or journaling.

You can create brain fatigue, fog or plain burnout by trying to make it run flat our all day long. Let it rest, reset and restore. You'll have much more happier.

I had not heard that about mindful exercise before. Do you have a source with more information?

I do not remember the exact study, but the one I read was pretty eye opening:

A big hotel chain takes a group of housekeepers and told them that their work also doubles as exercise. When compared to the control group, I believe after 8 weeks, the group which told that their work also doubles as exercise lost some weight collectively. Looks like the paper is at [0].

I have also done some further research into this, and found a couple of related studies.

One is [1]. Which simply states that focusing on the muscle group you're working on increases its activity and doubles the build-up. More references are present in the article.

Another study [2], tells that having an external focus point (music, podcasts or something) allows brain to make actions automatic and improve movement efficiency and economy, meaning the energy used is decreased IIUC. Hence, focusing internally makes body to burn more energy.

This study [3] states that listening to well selected music can improve efficiency and work output while reducing perceived strain. Improved efficiency again reduces the burnt calories per fixed time period, hence somewhat reducing the effectiveness of the exercise itself.

Hence, if you want to go far, some music or podcast can be beneficial, but for burning maximum calories in a limited time slot, looks like it reduces the effectiveness of the exercise somewhat.

Hope this helps.

[0]: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2007.01...

[1]: https://larsonsportsortho.com/mind-muscle-connection-can-bui...

[2]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7739707/

[3]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3339578/

With the right kind of music, it's not multitasking. A soothing repetitive beat with no lyrics (lofi or trance for me) is perfect for me to work with, without getting an overwhelming sensation.

> maybe some of those people you observe are just listening to music all day long.

Is that supposed to be better? Modern humans can't stand listening to their own thoughts

What does not being able to stand listening to your own thoughts mean, to you? This feels like a very 'kids these days' comment but I don't feel like I actually understand what people are talking about when they say this.

For me music helps me concentrate with some tasks (especially in a more noisy environment where there are more distracting sounds), distracts for others, and for some just makes it a little less boring. I don't really find that I want it for the sake of displacing my own thoughts, if I'm bored doing something it's because there aren't any particularly interesting thoughts involved (and full disclosure, I have ADHD so my mind doesn't really need any encouragement at all to wander).

Introspection is the act of looking inward to examine your own thoughts, feelings, and motives. It is a personal process of self-reflection that helps you understand why you act and feel the way you do.

Pretty much everyone can benefit with some time for introspection. This is considerably easier to do if you have silence and boredom. Music, podcasts, television all hinder the practice of introspection. It takes practice though and that means being okay with silence and constantly keeping your mind on the task of examining your thoughts and feelings.

I think the poster was perhaps expressing that it doesn't look like enough people are comfortable with this process and seem to do anything they can to avoid it.

Ah, fair. I do often listen to music but I don't find myself short of time for introspection, in fact I probably spend too much time on it overall.

> Music, podcasts, television all hinder the practice of introspection.

For you. It hinders the process for you. Some people think better when not in complete silence.

Anyone that tries to speak broadly and paint everyone with the same brush when talking about neurological phenomena is clearly completely out of touch with the subject. The mind is a wonderfully complex and wholly unique thing. What works for one might not work for another.

This is a pretty well studied and researched area. It is in the research almost universally accepted that silence or white-noise is the most conducive environmental soundscape for introspective thought across all groups.

Can a person who spent their entire life in a low sensory environment have a lot of worthwhile introspection? I think even the low sensory cave children have a form of council.

People go to therapy, group therapy, read, etc in order to have thoughts of others that seem rather important to introspective thought to me. I don't think all audio media and forms of listening would fit, but I don't think all wouldn't fit as those important inputs.

> What does not being able to stand listening to your own thoughts mean, to you?

Just being yourself with no external stimuli. A lot of people go through the whole day listening to podcasts, books and music, from morning commute to falling asleep

What?

For me, my life has gotten so stressful and awful, I just need to get away from my anxiety and the best way is through distraction. Music, podcasts, and audio books help me maintain some semblance of normalcy. I can't even fall asleep without some distraction. I'll stay up all night stressing about not being able to find work, my kid's futures, my piling up of bills, inflation, ever expanding war, etc.

have you considered seeking treatment? I personally have had some spells like you are describing, and generally white knuckled through. I tried medication for the last one, and I'll be darned if it didn't work pretty well.

No job, no money, no healthcare.

Hey Rami - was trying to reach you through the form on your website, but I got errors. Contact me if you're interested in a fun, paid mission. // JRO

I appreciate it a lot. I shot you an email yesterday. Have a nice weekend.

I didn't see the email come through...

wow, I hope you two have connected

> It seems most people today have headphones on all the time. I don't understand it. I'm not sure, but it would seem people hate their own voice?

Depends on the location maybe too? I think in big cities I see more people with headphones on when they're out and about (which makes sense, cities tends to be noisy and not in the interesting way like nature is), compared to in the small town I live in now, where most people aren't wearing headphones, except if they exercise.

I guess it also depends on what you listen to. I've found certain types of electronic music to essentially put me in a "trance of focus and clarity" and as long as I keep it going, that can give me enough energy for hours to do all the chores of the day + end it all with a swim, all while listening to liquid drum & bass and forgetting about everything else in the world.

I see a lot of people walking around in the city with headphones, and I always find it concerning. These people have huge issues with situational awareness: they can't hear faster walkers approaching from behind, often don't notice suspicious or erratic behaviour from the local flavour until far too late, and IMO are simply incapable of properly anticipating things like increased engine roars as a driver guns it trying to make it by on a yellow.

As long as people realize they are making this tradeoff, fine, I guess. But I wouldn't.

I dunno, usually they seem to have good enough. I'm not sure what the risk is for "faster walkers approaching from behind" but where I live, it's the etiquette that it's the responsibility of the one passing to make sure to not bother the passee, it's not up to them to make sure you don't walk into them. The other points just seem over the top cautious as well, but maybe I'm too European to understand the constant stress and threats that seems typical in the US and similar places.

I'm fairly sure people are aware about the fact that they're missing a whole sense + some situational awareness when they're wearing headphones and walk around :)

I'm in downtown Toronto, and there are plenty of (very quiet) electric cars, all sorts of quiet e-bikes and other electric personal transportation devices (scooters, e-unicycles) and other things (roller blades, bikes, skateboards) where often the only sound is the noise of the wheels on the sidewalk / pavement making a quiet hiss / rumble. I do a lot of walking, and headphone people are often (but not always) quite clueless about these things approaching. Granted, those other people aren't supposed to be where people are walking, but they regularly are, sadly.

Passing isn't something that is only the responsibility of the passer, that of course is absurd. Most people don't walk on the very edge of a path, but slightly off from the center (or in the shade close to the buildings if hot, or far from the street if puddles and raining, and etc), and you may also be carrying things that make you take up a lot of space.

So, in practice, as a walker, you do in fact have to be aware of people approaching from behind, at least, if you aren't an ass, because it is often kind (or even necessary) to move aside a bit to make passing easier / possible. Earphone people are some of the biggest assholes in these scenarios.

EDIT: But I fully agree that once you get out of the chaos of the downtown core, or likely plenty of other cities, this is probably just not really a meaningful problem / tradeoff.

> Passing isn't something that is only the responsibility of the passer, that of course is absurd. Most people don't walk on the very edge of a path,

Interesting difference between Canadians and Spanish people then, very interesting. Here it's expected you don't walk in the middle if you can, at least in metropolitan areas where people have very different walking speed. If you have to say something in order to pass the person, then the other person is already doing something wrong. Most people I see with headphones are indeed almost always walking very much on the sides, exactly so they are not in the way and don't need to be bothered.

> personal transportation devices (scooters, e-unicycles) and other things (roller blades, bikes, skateboards) where often the only sound is the noise of the wheels on the sidewalk / pavement making a quiet hiss / rumble

I guess this is a more practical difference, here all vehicles (including scooters, bicycles, and everything that doesn't have two meat legs) have dedicated streets/lanes, or use normal roads where cars go. None of those vehicles go at the same street/pavement where pedestrians go, so I don't think headphone-wearing pedestrians have to worry about the same thing as the Toronto people seemingly have to watch out for. You could walk blindfolded more or less in central Barcelona, and not get close to being hit by any bicycles or scooters. In fact, there are tons of blind people seemingly navigating the city just well :)

Hope you get more modern car-alternative infrastructure in the soon future! It helps a lot to separate a whole host of traffic you don't want with pedestrians, and is easily worth the investment.

In open plan offices there is no silence. Working at home there's no silence.

Headphones offer the only escape. They're also a sign that you are trying to concentrate to discourage those "just a quick word" moments which could easily be covered by an instant message.

For you I'd recommend some ear protectors that one might use when operating power tools :-).

I actually think ear protectors with some bluetooth headphones built in might be the ideal solution :-)

> They're also a sign that you are trying to concentrate to discourage those "just a quick word" moments which could easily be covered by an instant message.

This is the reason I wear headphones, I don't even switch them on.

It seems to be less broadly understood than before and my work is often disrupted.

Earplugs work very well for me. I can't hear anything with them on.

I wear headphones about 80% of my waking day. Super comfy, wireless, noise-cancelling ones. The funny thing is, I rarely play anything through them, and am almost always just listening to silence.

I try and listen to other things, podcasts or music, sadly nothing compares to that golden silence.

> In open spaces I wear earplugs.

Noise canceling headphones do the trick for me, I just don’t play anything through them. I don’t like the feeling of something in my ears.

I haven't found noise cancelling headphones that don't cause pressure. And with Bose it's like some weird negative something sensation - like disturbingly quiet. I presume it's what those sound proof rooms feel like from what I've heard described.

I have a pair of Sony WH-1000XM4 headphones, and they are so comfortable that I can wear them all day. They also get so quiet that they made me realize that I have tinnitus.

I've had these before and can confirm they're great, noticeably lighter than my current Airpods Max.

FYI: I believe the XM4 is still vulnerable to CVE-2025-20700/20701/20702 if that's a concern for you.

I never really understood how people can wear headphones all day. I have the XM5 headphones, and after a couple of hours, it starts hurting my head. What am I doing wrong? I also have the earbuds of the same generation, and they're much more comfortable, but the noise cancelling is less consistent.

Yeah, I get it. ANC can feel like you're underwater sometimes, but ear plugs won't get rid of that pressure feeling. You'd need an actually quiet room, which I guess is my ideal anyways.

Two reflections from me:

- Starting my career during the beginning of and through the peak of the open floor plan office trained me to use headphones as a signal to others that I wanted to be left alone / needed to focus on my task. Now I catch myself doing it in other contexts subconsciously, like the gym, and have to stop myself sometimes to make sure I am doing it intentionally. I am at the age now where like you, I either prefer silence, or reminisce about the bygone days where people struck up conversations, past the usual pleasantries - just deep conversation with a total stranger that you may or may not ever see again, which wearing headphones takes away that possibility.

- silence is generally, in my opinion, for content people and/or people not struggling with a mental illness. I'd venture a guess that our field skews towards people who have negative internal voices. Having something playing as a distraction can take you away from those destructive thoughts. I had to do a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and soul searching to be content with silence.

I just love silence.

I am just like you, but my guess is most people are not in this category. I also like empty space - no matter how big my living space is (not that it is big), I hate to fill it with things I don't need. Perfectly happy with just keeping only those things I need and leave the rest of the space empty. In this too, I have noticed, I am in the minority.

Not saying one is better than the other. If people like sound/noise, it is their choice. That said, people who like silence are at a disadvantage, as silence is becoming rarer and rarer, whereas noise is everywhere. At minimum, it would be nice if people put their headphones on and not bother others...

You sound way too judgemental and proud of being ok with silence (?). I mean, what?

> I don't understand it. I'm not sure, but it would seem people hate their own voice?

No, some people just like to do things listening to music or similar things.

Some put headphones on because you want silence. So much noise outside.

For one: headphones are a nonstarter for me. Even earbuds… I don't want anything attached to, hanging off of me. Speakers only.

But for me it's music playing in the background. Podcasts I have to listen to, background music just… goes—my thoughts are free to wander.

I find that when the music is not on, I start up a song in my head—and usually an annoying one for some reason—and it will be on an endless loop until I put on something external.

Recently, I've stopped carrying my headphones when I leave home and also stopped having them on after around 2pm. Somedays, I don't wear them at all.

This means, no music when working out, on public transit, when grocery shopping etc.

The reason I did this was because I was noticing that the music was getting me too hyped and that was interfering with my sleep. Sometimes, it was even stuck in my head while I was lying on my bed trying to sleep.

I am the same when I am doing deep work that I am interested in. I need absolute silence.

My day-to-day mundane work is a bit different, but I still cannot listen to music with lyrics. I have found to my surprise that the soundtrack of 8-bit games (SNES et al) really helps.

I now have a playlist full of those, with soundtracks from Star Fox to A Link to the Past. Really helps with the mundane stuff.

Half the time I have my headphones on playing nothing. I'm just using the noise cancellation to find some silence.

I run a lot and I do a lot of work on the property; there are times when my head requires silent decompression and or sorting out my own thoughts and silence is golden; there are times when I want to catch up on the news and/or be distracted from the task at hand and a podcast is great.

> It seems most people today have headphones on all the time.

I don't know about other people, but for me, if I'm using my earbuds it is because someone around me is being distracting and/or annoying.

I usually prefer silence for work, but often that isn't an option.

I agree. Most of the time, silence. Sometimes, white noise to block other's people voice. And when I don't need to do something intellectual, just listening to the buzz of life around

> but it would seem people hate their own voice?

Hell yes. And the other bits of me hate me and each other. Being alone with my own thoughts can be a dangerous situation.

Ditto this. Getting better thanks to therapy but at my worst podcasts were a welcome endless noise to stop me from spiralling. As I heal the balance is leaning back to music and occasionally my unaided imagination, but it’s still uncomfortable to be alone.

Alia?

Silence during driving is not really a good thing, you should be aware of the surroundings and other participants, hear your car for weird noises, etc.

Same with walking in the city IMO.

I wear ANC headphones most of the time and especially in public because people are too loud. I have nothing playing, it’s just quieter ambient noise.

You should try foam earplugs, if they are comfortable for you. Far more effective and discreet, you have a range of dB ratings to choose from for degree of muting, they are cheaper and stay in place better, and are more portable.

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