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Comment by jimnotgym | Hacker News Reader

What I really don't understand is why the security people who sent to jail didn't drop their boss in it in return for diminishing their role

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There is a chance there wasn’t anything incriminating. The top guys kept conversations live or intimated they wanted something done; the lowers took the planning and execution upon themselves.

Yup, i've worked long enough with senior mgmt to know that anything of interest for prosecution won't be written down, especially not on company devices. Those making the mistakes of writing things down are those actually prosecuted, the ranks and files.

> anything of interest for prosecution won't be written down, especially not on company devices

This vastly overestimates the opsec of most tech executives.

I was told to do something that was a crime by my line level manager at a tech company when I was only a few years in my career, with code that he hand wrote and wanted me to type in and commit under my name.

When I refused he called me into a 1:1 and verbally told me I would be losing my job if I didn’t and only backed off when I told him he was never getting that paper back and asked if he wanted to go HR right now at which point I would be going to legal and didn’t care if I lost my job as long as he was implicated.

Only time in my career it’s happened, but it happens.

That's a terrible situation, especially for someone early in their career. Glad you stood your ground and had some hard evidence to back you up.

In my own experience, the brass sets the culture and expectations that encourage department heads to break the law. Certainly there are done CEOs explicitly commanding people to do crime, but it's more common to tell people to, eg, move fast, focus on profits, and do whatever needs to get done.

It's standard policy at most major corporations even for low-level employees to not discuss anything legally sensitive over company e-mail or chat.

You vastly underestimate how much they take care of things. At the top people manage liability.

If anyone in leadership asks me to do anything that I find personally concerning, I'll write an email asking them to confirm that's what they want me to do.

That's why the burden of proof needs to shift and our thinking about responsibility needs to shift. Your liability should increase in parallel with the benefits you derive from your position. If you are getting rich from running ebay then you will lose that wealth when something like this happens; it doesn't matter whether you directed it or even knew about it; you don't get to get rich if bad things happen while you are in charge.

Shady SR mgmt pro tips:

1) phones. In California, you get a lot of protection just calling the guy. Use this. Only call people in California.

2) never lie on an email (regarding money, asking for services, providing services)

3) never lie on a phone (regarding money, asking for services, providing services)

4) lying in person is fine

5) anything that MUST be written down must be deleted after read and have no trace back. (privnote etc)

6) all email services should be hosted overseas (protonmail etc)

You cannot be giving opsec tips and then suggesting using some arbitrary 3rd part service (privnote) as something that leaves no trace.

For all we know it is a honeypot. For all we know, everything is a honeypot.

Wasn't the strategy of Mafia bosses to say something vague like "I sure wish that guy would go away".

It was implicit that they wanted someone killed but if brought up in court they could say "I was just expressing an opinion, not giving an order"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...

If by mafia you mean English Crown sure.

https://youtu.be/c8TnSFyzLn4

Mobsters have it down to an art.

"You take care of it." means "Murder him and dump the body into a building foundation."

"I don't see any problems." can mean "The ambush will happen at the scheduled time. Vinnie will clean up the bodies."

etc.

You'll also see a lot of politicians using "dog whistle" statements, that are interpreted by listeners to mean something entirely different from the stated words.

That's assuming they're wiretapped. For corporate comms, just remember that email is discoverable while video calls typically aren't even retained. Be as explicit as you want, especially if you can rope a lawyer into the call and claim it's privileged.

Would be interesting if automatic AI transcripts change this.

Only unintentionally. I know for some unnamed companies any calls containing executives, the Zoom AI transcripts cannot be enabled.

> Mobsters have it down to an art

Non-mobsters aren’t always as careful. There is a good chance these guys just weren’t properly investigated.

A good fictional example of this I often think of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5j9RHCBpM

Dealing with turbulence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...

"Stand back and stand by."

I'm not a lawyer, but isn't RICO meant to give a way to prosecute those who are at the top of organizations that have people committing crimes like this?

But it's mind-boggling that any subordinate couldn't understand that such levels of depravity and insanity could land them in legal trouble, and that's besides the ethical issue.

I think they fully understood, which is why they all got jail sentences.

Those are some very Senior lowers

“Will no-one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

Possibly because they hope for gainful employment in future, and being a whistleblower of any variety tends to massively reduce the chances of that.

Cush consulting jobs after the fact. You don’t burn your social network unless the alternate is serious jail time. Given the slaps on the wrists described, clearly the after conviction pay day is more valuable.

> Cush consulting jobs after

Do you have evidence any of these folks got these?

Or generally, if any tech criminals now show nice consulting gigs on their LinkedIns and seem to have traction.

Wonder if any Enron perps are doing well, or Bernie Madoff’s associates, or if Elizabeth Holmes or SBF had righthand men…

This is well before most HN readers' time, but Michael Milken, the "Junk Bond King," was handed a $600,000,000 fine and a ten-year prison sentance for insider trading and racketeering. He was also barred from reëntering the securities industry. When he was released from prison after serving less than two years, he became a "consultant" charging a flat $25 million fee for his services, which avoided the ban on working in the securities industry.

Trump pardoned him in 2020. Consequences are incredibly elastic for people at the top of the food chain.

Oh lovely.

From his company’s Wiki page, one of the former employees:

> … later arrested after 1995 air rage incident

Other winners listed too but that’s the only guy who pooped on a plane.

These specific people? No. This happening in general? Yes - observed this first hand in the cybersecurity space.

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