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> I'm always surprised to see the extreme bitterness that comes out on these threads.

My guess (although I don't know vaksel at all) is that he is reflecting somewhat on his parents marriage.

I only say this because my parent's marriage was often so. While my mom has settled a bit with age, while I was growing up she used the threat of divorce as a weapon to settle arguments with my dad. She also tended to make stupid financial decisions (running up $8k in credit card debt on clothes when she had no job and without my dad knowing she even had a card) from which he would have to bail her out.

I often struggle with this innate fear I have that marriage means signing away all my earnings and being constantly treated as a child by my wife. For this reason I tend to choose extremely independent girlfriends, and ambition is one of my top attractors.

actually my parents have a great marriage, which is why I'm mainly focusing on the current generation of women

Then why do you have this bizarre perception that marriage is like a primordial evil?

from seeing it suck the life out of almost every single married guy I know

> "almost every"

Compare the difference between your friends who are successfully married and unsuccessfully married (in your eyes) and determine what the difference between those guys are. I guarantee you it will be equally as insightful as comparing their wives.

I'd guess that the men who are successfully married have retained an equal share of dominance in their relationship and the unsuccessful ones are essentially pussy whipped because they never stood up to their wives for fear of ending up single.

N = ?

You can probably write him off as a misogynistic idiot.

I'm about to get divorced from my wife (we have discussed it and it will definitely happen, but we want to figure out asset distribution, child care, etc before we file Collaborative Divorce): I mention this to offer perspective.

The sex never stopped -- we're splitting up and still had sex three times in the last 24 hours (guys never seem to figure out that most women want sex as much as they do and if she loses interest, it's almost certain that he is part of the reason). My wife is sometimes bitchy but is not at all materialistic. She can be a royal pain in the ass, has a lot of bad habits and can be excruciatingly annoying at times. BUT SO AM I!!! This is the part he's missing: from the woman's perspective, these guys are probably just as bad. So "she can divorce him and take half his stuff." Did he get that stuff while they were married, sharing expenses, etc? Is it possible that it's actually reasonable that she have a proportion of what they acquired together? No, of course not, it's "his stuff." Waah. I can't take all my toys and go home!

The reality is that it is extremely rare for a long term relationship to end completely due to the faults of one person.

It's a lot easier to blame your life on someone else than it is to look inward and see the flaws in yourself.

Now let the downmods begin :-)

See thats the thing, your anecdotal evidence doesn't disprove my assertion, it reinforces it. 40 years ago the women knew that for a successful marriage you needed a mutual effort. I'm talking about modern women, who know that divorce is a viable option, and that it is not worth trying when you have a big pay day in front of you.

I know a lot of unhappy men, not couples. In those relationships women seem to be fine. Why not? They sit on their asses doing nothing, while the man works his ass off trying to get the relationship humming again. Do I know some happy couples? Sure,but most of those have the european wife who wasn't raised on sex and the city.

Except the startup thing is your own doing and you know what you are getting into. With divorce, it can come out of nowhere, when you least expect it. And do you think taking a risk at 25 to do a startup is the same as losing everything you worked for at 30, 40, 50? At least with a startup there is a payoff at the end of the tunnel, with marriage you either gain nothing or lose everything.

Well maybe its just my personal experience, but the European girls seem to bring a lot more to relationships than the American girls. And its not a submissive thing, its more of a willingness to work things out.

The thing you need to realize is that the way the woman behaves when she is single or dating, is COMPLETELY different from the way she behaves when she is married. She doesn't need to hide who she truly is, because with the divorce option on the table she hit the jackpot. You think any of my friends would have married their wives if they acted the same way they act now? Hell no....hell one of them married his wife for the sole reason that she supposedly enjoyed having sex and couldn't get enough. That lasted exactly until they had their first kid, at which point she completely cut him off. The other, married his wife because she was supposedly the nicest girl he ever met, with that one she acted like bridezilla before the wedding, and seemed to have forgotten to turn that off afterwords.

Its not a hatred, its realism. I'll date American women, no problem. Because during the dating phase, they act just fine. The problem is, that for most of them its just an act until they tie the matrimonial knot, at which point the real them comes out, who you are stuck with.

I read somewhere that one of the biggest classes of people on welfare are recently divorced women. I'm inclined to agree that marriage can be a ripoff, but it doesn't always play out that way. Women are often in a dependent position, for the simple reason that the division of labor involves male income and female fertility, the latter of which is poorly remunerative.

Are American women so adept at hiding their "true" selves for so long? Perhaps your friends are poor judges of character, or simply didn't date them long enough to properly assess how they would function as a married couple.

Where I come from, it is taken as common knowledge that you should live together for a significant amount of time before getting married (2+ years is usual). Also, big extravagant weddings are not the norm -- most of my immediate and extended family got married by signing papers in a courthouse, or in a small ceremony at the most.

>>She doesn't need to hide who she truly is, because with the divorce option on the table she hit the jackpot.

I find this surprising also. From what I hear, divorce is terrible for everyone. I can't imagine that so many women marry into a relationship they don't expect to maintain (emotionally and sexually), especially with the way love and marriage are so glorified in the US.

> Where I come from, it is taken as common knowledge that you should live together for a significant amount of time before getting married (2+ years is usual). Also, big extravagant weddings are not the norm -- most of my immediate and extended family got married by signing papers in a courthouse, or in a small ceremony at the most.

Welcome to suburban America, where premarital sex is akin to treason against God, and the average wedding costs $20k.

its not really being adept, they just hide who they truly are. They may hate sex, but they do it, because they know that if they don't put out the guy will leave. They go to the gym, because they know if they become a fat slob the guy will leave. They act nice, because they know that if they are a bitch the guy will leave. When they get married on the other hand, they know that the guy can't leave anymore, so they can act how they want...and if the guy leaves, they'll get a huge payday.

I'm not sure about judges of character, but most of the guys dated their wives for 3-5 years and lived together for at least 2 years.

Divorce being terrible, mostly goes to the idea that the 2 people will end up hating each other. But its much more terrible for guys, who end up losing everything they worked for.

Yes, most women don't marry with idea of a divorce in mind. But its too juicy of a consolation prize, not to keep in mind when the relationship hits the rocks. Yes the idea of marriage is glorified in the U.S. and its part of the problem. It convinces people that all you need to do is get married, and the relationship will prosper all by itself

It is possible that the women in these scenarios are entirely at fault, but unlikely. Relationship problems usually stem from both of the people involved.

>>They may hate sex, but they do it

I don't know ANY women who hate sex itself. Perhaps the man has gotten lazier as well, in regards to sex?

>>They go to the gym...if they become a fat slob the guy will leave

Women's bodies are not the only ones that deteriorate. Are all of the men of your acquaintance perfectly fit as well? Furthermore, many women's bodies change in unexpected ways after childbirth...it is entirely normal to take up to a year post-breast feeding to recover, and that is provided that the women has time away from the child to exercise.

>>They act nice

As another woman on the thread mentioned, it is not only women who can be petty in relationships. Her "bitchy" behavior is almost certainly at least partially the husband's fault.

Perhaps the husband began working more hours, which combined with childcare, left the couple no time to be together?

It cannot be denied that marriage is hard. But it is far from impossible, and far from unsatisfactory when done properly. However, it takes work on both sides to maintain and adapt. I am not denying that the woman causes problems of her own, but relationships are rarely broken just by the fault of one person. You are probably getting a biased account because you are hearing it from the husband's perspective. Their wives may have things to say that would surprise you.

Yes its a two way street, but from what I'm seeing, the guys are the ones who are trying and the women are the ones who gave up.

No idea, but I do know that one guy hasn't gotten laid in 5 years, and the other only gets sex on big occasions like his birthday. The rest just bitch that they don't get as much as they used to.

The main ones: One I know is in the shame shape that he was in when they got married. The other one has actually gotten better since he hides from the wife at the gym. The other ones aren't as close friends so I don't really know what they looked like when they got married but most of them are in decent shape. Recovery thing also doesn't apply, since those are the older friends so they had their kids 3-4 years ago.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I'd side with the guys in this situation since I know for a fact that they've been the ones trying in the relationship.

Nope still same 40 hour work weeks.

I disagree, if one person tries to fix things, while the other does nothing, its the one who does nothing that is at fault for relationship deteriorating.

And yeah I may be biased towards my friends, but I met the wives too and honestly I haven't seen an ounce of contradicting evidence in how they act towards their husbands.

My friend said it best or quoted someone: "Marriage is not a one-time event."

inglorian, I really like your attitude and I can't add anything to this discussion since I never dated an American girl myself. However, I have a few friends in real estate circles and all of them agree that whenever they have a house on sale due to divorce, the most common cause by far is a male losing his high paying job.

I find it shocking and very telling fact about internal dynamics at most American families. You would think losing your job calls for your partner's support, while it seems to me that for significant number of American men losing a high-paying job likely means losing the family too.

You are right, that is terribly sad. I also find it very strange, though: unless I am missing something, the woman isn't going to be better off on her own (especially with children) than with the currently-unemployed husband, unless she somehow expects to marry another high-earner immediately (this seems very unlikely). How is it a better decision financially to get divorced in this situation than to stay together? Divorce alone is extremely expensive, and if the couple did not sign a prenuptual agreement, presumably the man cannot be forced to pay high alimony payments if he is unemployed.

I'd guess that the reason is actually the opposite. The marriage wasn't doing that well to begin with, but there was a financial incentive not to rock the boat (the money).

Once you lose that salary, the woman has less incentive to put up with a marriage she is unhappy with. If people will marry someone just for the money, I don't find it much of a stretch to assume they will stick together as long as the funds keep flowing.

You also have to question the nature of the marriage to begin with. If he was doing a high-paid job when they got married, then I would likely say that she was a gold-digger to begin with. The marriage would end in divorce solely because he lost the reason why she married him in the first place.

While that is certainly possible, I wouldn't argue it's required.

Consider a couple that is living together. They might be unhappy, but bearing it anyway because they have a lease and moving out and separating all your stuff is a pain in the ass. However, once that lease comes up for renewal, suddenly the burden of breaking up isn't so heavy, which might be just enough to make it happen.

What I was proposing for marriages->jobs is analogous.

There does seem to be a lot of people (males and females) looking for an excuse to escape a relationship. Honestly I believe many of these relationships are already failed because both parties have essentially quit but are 'going through the motions' and when the 'motions' change then it becomes easier to quit than adapt, just like it was easier to stay together than split.

This behavior just reminds me of the concept of a philosophical zombie. They seem to make the choice not through conscious thought but through unconscious programming.

Right. That most divorces follow economic troubles does not imply most economic problems lead to divorce. It's easy to ignore this and make a converse fallacy.

> The divorce rate is 50%...but the failure rate of startups is even higher.

I'm not sure it is. When you see a high figure like 80% quoted for small companies failing, that's mainly due to restaurants. Serious startups founded by serious people rarely fail. (Getting acquired by a public company is like staying married your whole life.)

The failure rate of relationships is very high. If you date 20 people before getting married, that's a 95% failure rate. But it's still worth it.

Where do you get your figures?