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Comment by itsmeagainhere | Hacker News Reader

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I’m Ukrainian. I upvoted your comment because I want to show more people how this kind of thinking is mistaken. This kind of logic is very common in those who don’t support Ukraine: they think NATO is “using” Ukraine to fight Russia. They somehow forget that Ukrainians are willingly fighting to defend their own country — NATO can’t “use” a people who are unwilling to fight on their own. (Sure some of my friends have been unwillingly conscripted but that is normal human weakness, that is not evidence that Ukrainians don’t want to defend Ukraine).

If I helped a friend fight off their enemy am I “using” the friend? I saw with my own eyes the thousands of Ukrainians who lined up to fight (and continue to do so) to defend their home country. Sure NATO is supporting us because that’s what allies do, and of course we wish for their increased support. However NATO is not “using” us against our will — they have no ability to compel us to do that.

Sure NATO is already waging war against Russia, but Russia started it.

We (or at least not the insane part of) in NATO are using you, in the sense that it's easier for us to throw money at you fighting Russia than not, you losing, then us having to lose people.

I don't know how I feel about that, on one hand, we are helping you defend, on the other we are just going "well, at least it's not our civilians and soldiers dying".

But, either way, thank you!

I wouldn’t call it “using” I would call it “supporting” since most of us fight willingly. There is no way any army could hold back Russia for 5 years if we weren’t extremely determined and willing to fight.

I would call it using. Because we could've sent troops there, we just chose not to. You are obviously doing it for your own reasons, but we are just happy to see you get slaughtered, as long as our people don't get killed.

Plenty of Americans and Europeans die on the Ukrainian battlefield every day. Western governments don't officially send troops, but there are plenty of people who are willing to risk their lives to defend an oppressed sovereign nation from invasion.

As for the fact that the West could've sent troops but chose not to, yes, that does hurt a lot of Ukrainians, and some do feel used. But we'll fight and win anyway, to defend our homeland, because we have no choice - material support from the West is better than nothing.

Russia adhered to the Minsk agreements as long as it could, it did not want to start this war. Both Merkel and Hollande, as far as I remember, admitted that the Minsk agreements were not made in good faith, and their purpose was only to give time to Ukraine to rearm. Russia started the war after it became clear that NATO was going to enter Ukraine, and after it was abundantly clear for years that the real purpose of ukranian nationalists was collaborating with the west to destroy Russia and its identity (though you will probably negate this, you could not negate that there was a tacit and creeping legitimization in Ukraine of murders and violent actions against people identifying themselves as Russians).

Russia started the war after it became clear that NATO was going to enter Ukraine

First of all, the Minsk agreements did not state that Ukraine could not join NATO, this is Russian propaganda:

https://mythdetector.com/en/was-ukraine-refusing-to-join-nat...

Second, NATO was not "going to enter Ukraine". Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign country. If they want to join NATO, they can solicit membership. The rest of NATO can accept or refuse.

Though given that your account is new and mostly pro-Russian propaganda, you are probably just a Russian troll.

Creeping legitimization of murders and violent actions against people identifying as Russian? Nope I lived in Kharkiv for many years where many people identified as Russian. They felt perfectly safe in Ukraine until Russia invaded. They still feel perfectly safe living in Kyiv and Odessa —- except for Russian missiles of course.

As for Merkel and Hollande — if you think the Minsk agreements or other agreements were in bad faith, then was the invasion of Crimea and Donbass “in bad faith”? There can be no “good faith” agreements when a neighbor chooses to invade you.

> it did not want to start this war

This is such twisted logic it’s insane. If Russia didn’t want to start this war then why did they start it? Who forced them?

My distant roots came also from Khar'kov.

As for legitimization of murders of Russian people, I remind you the Odessa pogrom and the "anti terrorist operation" (there was not "just" this).

"Such twisted ligic.." Russia started the war with the main purpose to make the current Ukranian government fall, and to stop NATO from entering Ukraine. It did not succeed.

Regarding the Odessa incident— Any government will of course punish traitors. There is no government in the world that doesn’t punish people trying to revolt. The Russian government has killed and imprisoned lots of Russians for opposing the government for example. This Odessa incident is not a proof of anti-Russian hate, it’s a normal response of any government.

Now you agree that Russia started the war to topple Ukraine and and failed in its purpose. So we agree!

I should also add that I still read Dostoyevsky and respect Tolstoy and other high Russian culture. But killing Ukrainians? I don’t respect that. In fact I believe that if Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy were alive today they would oppose the Russian government of today just like they opposed the Russian government of their time. Both were nearly killed and imprisoned by their own government.

..and Crimea and Donbass do not want to be "defended by you". They actually want you to be as far as possible from them. Though of course if you go in there, and do what you did when you returned to Izyum and Kupyansk, people will be silent.

I hope you understand that (but to people such as yourself, this rarely matters, in my experience).

> and Crimea and Donbass do not want to be "defended by you".

Most of my friends are from Crimea and the Donbass because my roots are from the Donbass myself. The Ukrainian army is full of people from Crimea (Tatars) and the Donbass who fight willingly to defend Ukraine. Look up the Donbass battalions of the Ukrainian army. Izyum and Kupyansk were cities I visited in 2021 — perfectly safe until Russia invaded and destroyed.

I should also add that I still read Dostoyevsky and respect Tolstoy and other high Russian culture. But killing Ukrainians? I don’t respect that.

In fact I believe that if Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy were alive today they would oppose the Russian government of today just like they opposed the Russian government of their time.

Yes, it is in the interest of Ukraine, but that doesn't mean they're pushing for it or prove that Ukraine attacked Romania. And since these were Russian drones, are you suggesting that, unlike the previous times Russia bombed indiscriminately, this time Ukraine stole Russian drones and launched them at Romania?

As for the second part of your comment, your point is that Russia occupied and committed a genocide against that 'fake' country, when they became free tried to exercise soft power, failed, then invaded, but yet it's NATO that is waging war there?

The only part where you're right is that it is in NATO's interest that Ukraine keeps fighting, since it only costs us money, not people, while still killing the enemy. And that's why we're (and I include the EU here) giving them money, because we're terrified of what will happen when Russia is done with Ukraine.

Hello, this is Vladimir Putin. You are, of course, being correct and useful in your comment. Thank you for clearing up these misunderstandings about our three-day defensive special operation maneuver.

Continue to negate what is before your eyes (if you care to look, that is).

Very not false! Those who decline to cease to negate the negation of the existence of the country of Ukraine risk getting negated by falling out of a window of a high-story building. This is a not so rare occurrence, so beware.

How's Kolomoyskyi doing? Any skyscrapers at his ski club? Or would one of the lifts do?

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