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Comment by icantevenhold | Hacker News Reader

Sure the genre and many of its archetypes were invented in the WC3 fun/custom map scene but LoL is more than a Dota clone. I haven’t really played it (my moba time ended with HoN) but it’s obviously very well made

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It has matured over time but it was absolutely a hosted dota ripoff initially, including the playable characters. The fact there are also other spinoffs isn’t really relevant to its origins and lack of recognition or even an attempt at monetary compensation.

>or even an attempt at monetary compensation.

Who should pay who do you think in this?

Would love to hear.

Or is this the same as "reparations"? Poeple just dont want others to succeed.

I don’t know, like who even remembers Meian and Ragn0r, who created the original Dota before icefrog took over? I think icefrog benefited a lot from creating Dota and is widely credited - I mean it landed him a great job at valve after blizzard decided to ignore the great potential in their custom map community. The other devs that worked on it are basically unknown.

What makes it obvious to you, that LoL is well made? Userbase? Is candy crush obviously well made? Perhaps it is well marketed, more than well made?

Candy Crush is obviously well made. It's a scourge, but it's a well made scourge.

That's what I find so frustrating about games these days. The most effective business models (by a long way) are the ones that lean into all of the dark patterns.

They can attract great talent to work on them, and afford the time to build them well, because there's so much money sloshing around.

I understand what you're saying. I hold a different view of what is well made or not. Commercial success isn't the only measure. I believe dark patterns detract from the cultural value of a thing, which is how they came to be called that. Meta is a valuable company, but they could have made less money and provided much more value to society with different practices. There's a "rising tide lifts all boats" approach to commerce, and then there's the candy crush, perpetual enshittification, monetary maximalist approach, usually with negative side effects.

But that's beside the point. I don't think League of Legends is especially predatory, I just think it's a mediocre game that was well marketed at the right time to go "viral".

I think it’s pretty subjective at that point what is good and what isn’t.

Totally agree on the dark patterns though.

Out of interest what is a game you consider excellent that maybe wasn’t marketed as well?

Personally I really like dungeon keeper 1 (& 2 as well somewhat) - but Bullfrog was very unsuccessful as a company and went under. I don’t know exactly why, should look into that history

The example I always go to for oddly unsuccessful games, (good at least, I don't know about excellent,) was Super Monday Night Combat. It was something like Valve's Deadlock, a 3D MOBA game more than 10 years earlier, with a bit of The Finals aesthetic. (Coins, instead of blood, gameshowy, announcers quipping over the gameplay.) I had a lot of fun with it, but it seems like hardly anyone noticed it existed. They never got the critical mass of players needed to keep it going.

"I believe dark patterns detract from the cultural value of a thing"

+1 to that.

No it’s very polished in gameplay and balancing. I haven’t played it myself but I watched some others play it. Also looks great etc, so it’s obvious to me that it’s high quality

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