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Comment by NoMoreNicksLeft | Hacker News Reader

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Your argument leads me to assume you think everything that causes to someone need an ambulance is the result of their choices.

Victim of a violent crime? You shouldn't have left your house.

Run over by someone else? You shouldn't have left your house.

Caught an infectious disease? You shouldn't have left your house.

Fell down the stairs? Why were you in your house!?! Don't you know how dangerous it is?!?

Well, you don't know how rotten the industry is. Your moral social-darwinism just enriches a couple of suits, nothing more, instead of spreading the costs you could very well start by making sure the costs are not inflated.

x2..x5 multiplier is always applied to any ambulance bill as far as I'm aware. I worked in that industry.

This shit is exactly the problem with capitalism and capitalists.

I've seen as long as I've been alive, "Communism killed hundreds of millions!!!" breathless claims.

When Capitalism kills, oh wait, it never does! Its always "bad individual choices", and never a review of the terrible for-profit system that caused it to begin with.

> Making poor medical choices that prioritize your own well-being over the financial solvency of those you care for, those around you, is a shitty thing to do.

And there it is. The system is highly predatory as intentioned. But the system is just part of capitalism, so its OK. But 'YOUR CHOICES' are the one that's bad, aka blame redirection.

And guess what? More and more people are seeing behind this facade that capitalism is good. Socialism is better. We're tired of being extracted, used up, and thrown away. Its why I'm also part of DSA. I'm done with this individual blame for systemic shit.

Even the Soviets had a label for people who are a drain on society. You can’t run a country pretending everyone makes good choices.

And yet, somehow, not every country that has offered free ambulance rides has fallen into financial ruin.

Strawman. Ask any ER about “frequent flyers” who use ambulances as taxis

It's not a strawman. Ruining entire countries is literally what the parent comment said would happen if we do something as outrageous as making ambulances free.

> But those same people, through one false rationalization or another, are more than happy to ruin the entire country.

You may not have agued it yourself but your two sentence comment is rather lacking in alternate arguments, so I can only interpret you as supporting said parent comment and now engaging in a motte-and-bailey now that you realise you don't actually like what they said.

What do you consider financial ruin? Last time I checked most of those countries are desperately trying to contain their healthcare spending.

The increase in healthcare costs is more a function of an aging population, rather than people (mis)using ambulances too much. However in these countries, although the rates are fairly low, misuse of ambulances is often heavily linked to poor levels of health literacy or lack of transportation options - though the caller often genuinely perceives it as an emergency - both of which can be improved through other programs such as education and public transport provisions. It’s almost as if providing good public education and transportation makes the population more productive and less wasteful.

> The increase in healthcare costs is more a function of an aging population, rather than people (mis)using ambulances too much.

Sure, but increasing healthcare costs are due to a number of factors like new technology adoption, not just an aging population.

So while I would agree that no one is going bankrupt from overuse of ambulances, it all adds up.

I refuse to play these games. If you wish to make the argument that universal healthcare (including cheap or free ambulance coverage at point of use) necessarily leads to financial ruin you are free to make that argument, along with all the necessary support such a position requires. If you do not wish to do so, then I have no issues and thus decline to make any argument otherwise.

I am not obligated to make your argument for you, and I am not inclined to calibrate your motte-and-bailey merely because you feel like interjecting your support for a position you would call a strawman when called out.

> I am not obligated to make your argument for you

Are you just uncomfortable with debate? How do you debate the merits of the argument without defining the terms being used?

No, I just don't see any point in debating anything when you presumably agree that nobody is being bankrupted by free ambulance rides given that you called it a strawman. If you wish to defend what you called a strawman, which I didn't think people normally did in good faith but could be convinced otherwise, then I am willing to let you set the definitions you wish and make a case, as is standard for those instigating a discussion, while reserving the right to decline further participation if my disagreement with the position is below a certain threshold and/or any other reason I might find the discussion unproductive.

I never said no one would be bankrupted by ambulance fees.

We’re talking about financial ruin of the government.

I really don't see the point of playing these word games. I had assumed you meant the government, yes.

Clarifying definition is not a "word game". You seem quite uncomfortable debating the facts, and that's ok.

I am not interested in discussing "facts" with someone who has yet to acknowledge their motte-and-bailey, which for obvious reasons does not engender a reasonable expectation that such a discussion would be approached in good faith. If you wish to make a claim, you are free to explain your preferred definitions yourself. If you don't, there is nothing to debate.

The problem with capitalists is that if you wanted, they'd let you go do your little commune thing somewhere. The problem with communists is that if you're not a communist and you can't be reeducated into becoming one, you must die. Or if you're the wrong kind of communist. Or if you're the same kind of communist, but you also want power. Or if you don't want power, but they think you might some day. Or if you're related to someone who might want power some day.

But no, I won't be a communist with you. And if you insist, things could get ugly. Fortunately for me, you're still in your hipster-college-champagne stage of communism, and you're both scared of violence and worried about the PR backlash of being found out to be a bloodthirsty savage.

In November when it becomes apparent that the Democrats won't win back seats, you'll all start to panic. But the real fun will come in 2028 or 2030, when Obamacare will be dismantled. I can hardly wait.

I'm amazed that in ~450 comments, the word "capitalism" is mentioned in just one - yours - and you've been downvoted for criticizing it!

It seems even a group that purports to be rational critical thinkers don't want to be rational critical thinkers to the extent of looking into the root causes.

We should go further with this and require troops to pay for their own medevac. /s

Go ask SF troops what the PJs require from them if they get saved by a PJ (a branded tattoo on your ass).

I’m sure plenty of those soldiers would rather pay some money for the evac instead of a lifelong ass tat.

Well, if what I've read is true it's already sort of a practice in russian army.

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