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Comment by ds | Hacker News Reader

What a sad situation. Its obvious that McAfee is in a state of mania. Its been widely documented that he has extensive abuse issues with bath salt type of drugs which are about as paranoia-inducing as possible.

Regardless of his guilt in killing his neighbor, he truly needs professional help. Going long periods as he is can have serious long-term effects.

Also, this is not someone to idolize. He fled from the US to avoid a wrongful death lawsuit.

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For anyone unfamiliar with bath salts, here is a fairly comprehensive article describing the drug: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/

Also, here's a quick summary of what the drug does in GIF format: http://i.imgur.com/P4csH.gif

"Bath Salts" is not a "thing". "Bath salts" is how "research chemicals" (read: drugs) are imported to the United States and sold under the radar of the FDA and DEA.

These things are sold as: lady bug attractant, plant food, or bath salts.

None of these are actually the intended use, unless you think that head shops are now having crossover with bath and body works.

Here is an excellent [but very depressing] story about how some "lady bug attractant" devastated a town:

http://www.vice.com/read/bath-salts-in-the-wound-0000320-v19...

I wonder what happens if you actually ended up using bath salts as.... bath salts.

Would you experience effects from absorbing them? If so, that would be a pretty lock-solid lawsuit.

Unfortunately I suspect suing one of these companies would not be worth the trouble. I can't imagine they keep any amount of assets anywhere that they could be seized.

As was found via a reddit user, McAfee posted as "Stuffmonger" on a drug forum called http://www.bluelight.ru about his use ( with pictures and detials) of MDPV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone

Here is his thread: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/541627-Hello-and-an-MDPV-...

This is often sold as "bath salts" or "incense" but is illgal and as you can see from the stuffmonger thread not user super user friendly unless your a chemist.

Is the release of dopamine symbolized by it being released from the tap, or going down the drain?

The release of dopamine is symbolized by the water being released from the tap. When the water goes down the drain it is said to "reuptake". So bath salts, or MDPV, essentially combine the effects of cocaine and meth into one -- according to the PBS article, anyway.

Wow, that's a powerful article, and worth a submission on its own.

I wasn't aware that those stimulants could produce such long-lasting (and devastating) results.

It says the kid Sanders "wasn't prone to depression" but was "in a drug program for marijuana abuse, actively attending group meetings and undergoing frequent drug tests." Eh.

Are you implying that marijuana use and depression are somehow linked? That's bold!

Fantastic article. Thanks for the link.

The only way I can rationalize your post is by assuming that 1) you've never done any type of drugs, especially stimulants, and 2) you've yet to form an understanding of how the media likes to sensationalize stories to the point of making them up.

If you look at any of McAfee's current writings, posts, or comments, or his behavior on camera, or his health/appearance (that is, for a 70 year old man!), you'd see a man that's about as far away from a manic drug addicted bath salt face-eating user as you can get.

When someone asked him on the blog if he was suicidal -

McAfee said...

Don't have a knife. And I enjoy living. Suicide is

absurdly redundant. The world, from the very begining,

hurls viruses, accidents, hungry animals, defective DNA -

and uncountable more - in an attempt to kill us. It

always succeeds. Suicide is simply aiding and abetting.

http://www.whoismcafee.com/

Clearly a man that has lost his faculties.

Paranoia is obvious, psychosis I can believe as a side-effect from the drugs, but I'm not sure how you arrived at mania, especially in this case since the definition says the mood cannot be due to drugs/medication and it's not even clear that he has an elevated (or irritable) mood. If it isn't the drugs, it could just as likely be some kind of schizophrenia (no mania) as bipolar (implied by mania).

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mania#Signs_and_symptoms

A manic episode is defined in the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic manual as a period of seven or more days (or any period if admission to hospital is required) of unusually and continuously effusive and open elated or irritable mood, where the mood is not caused by drugs/medication or a medical illness (e.g., hyperthyroidism), and (a) is causing obvious difficulties at work or in social relationships and activities, or (b) requires admission to hospital to protect the person or others, or (c) the person is suffering psychosis.

To be classed as a manic episode, while the disturbed mood is present at least three (or four if only irritability is present) of the following must have been consistently prominent: grand or extravagant style, or expanded self-esteem; reduced need of sleep (e.g. three hours may be sufficient); talks more often and feels the urge to talk longer; ideas flit through the mind in quick succession, or thoughts race and preoccupy the person; over indulgence in enjoyable behaviors with high risk of a negative outcome (e.g., extravagant shopping, sexual adventures or improbable commercial schemes).

My understanding is that manic episodes are common when rapid removal from prolonged, extended drug use of synthetic stimulants. I assumed that since he was currently on the run that he would be without drugs since he chose to flee.

Oh I see. Alright well my understanding is that if you've had one or more manic episodes then you have bipolar disorder. I can see how coming off drugs could trigger a manic episode in somebody who was bipolar, even if it was their first such experience. However, assuming he's not bipolar, coming off drugs can still induce all sorts of sketchy, erratic, paranoid behaviour. On the other hand, he could have taken some with him... at any rate, the man needs a hospital and some lawyers.

Ok, it was really annoying to track down the source of the bath salt thing -- amazing how some journalists never link back to the original source.

But here's the gizmodo piece that mentions it: http://gizmodo.com/5959812/john-mcafee-wanted-for-murder

The original source there isn't Gizmodo; it's McAfee's own posts on the Bluelight drug forum. He has admitted these are his posts, though he now says it was a hoax: http://www.whoismcafee.com/stuffmonger-and-bluelight/

He also said the Exif data was a hoax. And that he was somewhere in Mexico. He says a lot of stuff. What does Occam suggest here?

Something something about shaving...

The story is that he made the posts -- the first news source for that seems to be Gizmodo. (And they provide enough supporting evidence to make it clear it's not pure speculation.)

For those unfamiliar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_salts_(drug)

(Basically "the informal "street name" for a family of designer drugs often containing substituted cathinones, which have effects similar to amphetamine and cocaine.")

I commented in an earlier thread explaining that there is little proven connection between Mephedrone/MPV and erratic behaviour. Plus surveys show its less addictive than cocaine.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4861611

Just like any crazy drug story, its rarely the drug that makes someone crazy, it just amplifies existing mental health issues.

We're not just talking about mephedrone, we're talking about a wide range of odd drugs.

I agree that main stream reporting on drugs is generally awful.

> its rarely the drug that makes someone crazy, it just amplifies existing mental health issues.

Since we're talking about novel compounds and there's no ethical way to design an experiment I'm surprised at the firmness with which you make your statement.

There are a range of options.

People with existing MH problems could be worse if they didn't take drugs.

People with existing MH problems could make those problems more severe by taking drugs.

People with underlying MH problems could make those problems more likely to surface by taking drugs.

People without risk of MH problems could cause MH problems by taking drugs.

[Obligatory drugs disclaimer: I'm firmly pro-legalisation of most drugs. Things like mephedrone wouldn't be used if other drugs were legal.]

The main point is very little is known about these drugs regarding potential for abuse or potential to cause psychosis or mania. Most of the media reports have proven to be inaccurate or anecdotal from small sample sizes.

Secondly, McAfee has denied any long term use of the drug on Joe Rogans podcast and said his reports were one-off experimentations.

So both of those combined means that saying his use of bath salts is a good indicator that he may have committed the crime is wildly speculative.

Strain anything hard enough and it will deform/break - at which time you can point at the failure and say "see? There was a defect/issue here!"

Inject enough disruptive chemicals in a finely tuned highly complex chemical process (your brain) and you'll screw it up.

Any existing mental health issues will, of course, become soon apparent. Lacking any (and nobody is mentally perfect), screw with brain chemistry long enough and there will be.

This allegation that he was synthesizing bath salts makes zero sense. It's so ubiquitous and cheap, it makes as much sense as synthesizing tylenol. Don't believe the media hype and spread fud.

It's not alleged that he was synthesizing the drug himself. However, his own messages say that he was a routine user.

He's a troll. Check out Joe Rogan Experience Podcast where he was guest, he explains it in details: http://vimeo.com/54406807

He says he's a troll now, like he says he faked the Exif data on the photo, and that he painted his face black and hung out around his house watching the GSU police. Read those posts though, and then think about the details of his life we're pretty confident about (he slept with teenaged girls, his partner in the antibiotics enterprise fled the country in fear of McAfee). What's the missing piece you need to judge the veracity of his posts? Just whether he routinely abused easily-obtainable recreational drugs. Are synthetic cathinone drugs even illegal yet in Belize?

What does Occam tell you? Was it all an elaborate troll? Or is that the best thing he can come up with to say now?

"He's a troll."

Being a troll does not mean that everything he says is false, nor does it mean that he is not ungrounded.

I've encountered plenty of people IRL and over the internet who are clearly ill but claim that they're only behaving that way "to watch the drama" or because they're "pulling the strings" of others. Be it a personality disorder or some form of sociopathy, it is not what I consider to be your usual troll/prankster, because the latter can turn it off when they want to.

Even if he rolls statements back later, he's always on stage, always boasting, and no amount of "I'm the puppetmaster, you've come into my trap, now dance!" and lies/coverups makes him somehow less deranged.

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