John McAfee arrested in Guatemala | Hacker News Reader

John McAfee arrested in Guatemala

reuters.com

189 pointsssclafani109 comments

What a sad situation. Its obvious that McAfee is in a state of mania. Its been widely documented that he has extensive abuse issues with bath salt type of drugs which are about as paranoia-inducing as possible.

Regardless of his guilt in killing his neighbor, he truly needs professional help. Going long periods as he is can have serious long-term effects.

Also, this is not someone to idolize. He fled from the US to avoid a wrongful death lawsuit.

For those unfamiliar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_salts_(drug)

(Basically "the informal "street name" for a family of designer drugs often containing substituted cathinones, which have effects similar to amphetamine and cocaine.")

I commented in an earlier thread explaining that there is little proven connection between Mephedrone/MPV and erratic behaviour. Plus surveys show its less addictive than cocaine.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4861611

Just like any crazy drug story, its rarely the drug that makes someone crazy, it just amplifies existing mental health issues.

We're not just talking about mephedrone, we're talking about a wide range of odd drugs.

I agree that main stream reporting on drugs is generally awful.

> its rarely the drug that makes someone crazy, it just amplifies existing mental health issues.

Since we're talking about novel compounds and there's no ethical way to design an experiment I'm surprised at the firmness with which you make your statement.

There are a range of options.

People with existing MH problems could be worse if they didn't take drugs.

People with existing MH problems could make those problems more severe by taking drugs.

People with underlying MH problems could make those problems more likely to surface by taking drugs.

People without risk of MH problems could cause MH problems by taking drugs.

[Obligatory drugs disclaimer: I'm firmly pro-legalisation of most drugs. Things like mephedrone wouldn't be used if other drugs were legal.]

The main point is very little is known about these drugs regarding potential for abuse or potential to cause psychosis or mania. Most of the media reports have proven to be inaccurate or anecdotal from small sample sizes.

Secondly, McAfee has denied any long term use of the drug on Joe Rogans podcast and said his reports were one-off experimentations.

So both of those combined means that saying his use of bath salts is a good indicator that he may have committed the crime is wildly speculative.

Strain anything hard enough and it will deform/break - at which time you can point at the failure and say "see? There was a defect/issue here!"

Inject enough disruptive chemicals in a finely tuned highly complex chemical process (your brain) and you'll screw it up.

Any existing mental health issues will, of course, become soon apparent. Lacking any (and nobody is mentally perfect), screw with brain chemistry long enough and there will be.

For anyone unfamiliar with bath salts, here is a fairly comprehensive article describing the drug: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/

Also, here's a quick summary of what the drug does in GIF format: http://i.imgur.com/P4csH.gif

"Bath Salts" is not a "thing". "Bath salts" is how "research chemicals" (read: drugs) are imported to the United States and sold under the radar of the FDA and DEA.

These things are sold as: lady bug attractant, plant food, or bath salts.

None of these are actually the intended use, unless you think that head shops are now having crossover with bath and body works.

Here is an excellent [but very depressing] story about how some "lady bug attractant" devastated a town:

http://www.vice.com/read/bath-salts-in-the-wound-0000320-v19...

I wonder what happens if you actually ended up using bath salts as.... bath salts.

Would you experience effects from absorbing them? If so, that would be a pretty lock-solid lawsuit.

Unfortunately I suspect suing one of these companies would not be worth the trouble. I can't imagine they keep any amount of assets anywhere that they could be seized.

As was found via a reddit user, McAfee posted as "Stuffmonger" on a drug forum called http://www.bluelight.ru about his use ( with pictures and detials) of MDPV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone

Here is his thread: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/541627-Hello-and-an-MDPV-...

This is often sold as "bath salts" or "incense" but is illgal and as you can see from the stuffmonger thread not user super user friendly unless your a chemist.

Is the release of dopamine symbolized by it being released from the tap, or going down the drain?

The release of dopamine is symbolized by the water being released from the tap. When the water goes down the drain it is said to "reuptake". So bath salts, or MDPV, essentially combine the effects of cocaine and meth into one -- according to the PBS article, anyway.

Wow, that's a powerful article, and worth a submission on its own.

I wasn't aware that those stimulants could produce such long-lasting (and devastating) results.

It says the kid Sanders "wasn't prone to depression" but was "in a drug program for marijuana abuse, actively attending group meetings and undergoing frequent drug tests." Eh.

Are you implying that marijuana use and depression are somehow linked? That's bold!

Fantastic article. Thanks for the link.

Ok, it was really annoying to track down the source of the bath salt thing -- amazing how some journalists never link back to the original source.

But here's the gizmodo piece that mentions it: http://gizmodo.com/5959812/john-mcafee-wanted-for-murder

The original source there isn't Gizmodo; it's McAfee's own posts on the Bluelight drug forum. He has admitted these are his posts, though he now says it was a hoax: http://www.whoismcafee.com/stuffmonger-and-bluelight/

He also said the Exif data was a hoax. And that he was somewhere in Mexico. He says a lot of stuff. What does Occam suggest here?

Something something about shaving...

The story is that he made the posts -- the first news source for that seems to be Gizmodo. (And they provide enough supporting evidence to make it clear it's not pure speculation.)

Paranoia is obvious, psychosis I can believe as a side-effect from the drugs, but I'm not sure how you arrived at mania, especially in this case since the definition says the mood cannot be due to drugs/medication and it's not even clear that he has an elevated (or irritable) mood. If it isn't the drugs, it could just as likely be some kind of schizophrenia (no mania) as bipolar (implied by mania).

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mania#Signs_and_symptoms

A manic episode is defined in the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic manual as a period of seven or more days (or any period if admission to hospital is required) of unusually and continuously effusive and open elated or irritable mood, where the mood is not caused by drugs/medication or a medical illness (e.g., hyperthyroidism), and (a) is causing obvious difficulties at work or in social relationships and activities, or (b) requires admission to hospital to protect the person or others, or (c) the person is suffering psychosis.

To be classed as a manic episode, while the disturbed mood is present at least three (or four if only irritability is present) of the following must have been consistently prominent: grand or extravagant style, or expanded self-esteem; reduced need of sleep (e.g. three hours may be sufficient); talks more often and feels the urge to talk longer; ideas flit through the mind in quick succession, or thoughts race and preoccupy the person; over indulgence in enjoyable behaviors with high risk of a negative outcome (e.g., extravagant shopping, sexual adventures or improbable commercial schemes).

My understanding is that manic episodes are common when rapid removal from prolonged, extended drug use of synthetic stimulants. I assumed that since he was currently on the run that he would be without drugs since he chose to flee.

Oh I see. Alright well my understanding is that if you've had one or more manic episodes then you have bipolar disorder. I can see how coming off drugs could trigger a manic episode in somebody who was bipolar, even if it was their first such experience. However, assuming he's not bipolar, coming off drugs can still induce all sorts of sketchy, erratic, paranoid behaviour. On the other hand, he could have taken some with him... at any rate, the man needs a hospital and some lawyers.

This allegation that he was synthesizing bath salts makes zero sense. It's so ubiquitous and cheap, it makes as much sense as synthesizing tylenol. Don't believe the media hype and spread fud.

It's not alleged that he was synthesizing the drug himself. However, his own messages say that he was a routine user.

He's a troll. Check out Joe Rogan Experience Podcast where he was guest, he explains it in details: http://vimeo.com/54406807

He says he's a troll now, like he says he faked the Exif data on the photo, and that he painted his face black and hung out around his house watching the GSU police. Read those posts though, and then think about the details of his life we're pretty confident about (he slept with teenaged girls, his partner in the antibiotics enterprise fled the country in fear of McAfee). What's the missing piece you need to judge the veracity of his posts? Just whether he routinely abused easily-obtainable recreational drugs. Are synthetic cathinone drugs even illegal yet in Belize?

What does Occam tell you? Was it all an elaborate troll? Or is that the best thing he can come up with to say now?

"He's a troll."

Being a troll does not mean that everything he says is false, nor does it mean that he is not ungrounded.

I've encountered plenty of people IRL and over the internet who are clearly ill but claim that they're only behaving that way "to watch the drama" or because they're "pulling the strings" of others. Be it a personality disorder or some form of sociopathy, it is not what I consider to be your usual troll/prankster, because the latter can turn it off when they want to.

Even if he rolls statements back later, he's always on stage, always boasting, and no amount of "I'm the puppetmaster, you've come into my trap, now dance!" and lies/coverups makes him somehow less deranged.

The only way I can rationalize your post is by assuming that 1) you've never done any type of drugs, especially stimulants, and 2) you've yet to form an understanding of how the media likes to sensationalize stories to the point of making them up.

If you look at any of McAfee's current writings, posts, or comments, or his behavior on camera, or his health/appearance (that is, for a 70 year old man!), you'd see a man that's about as far away from a manic drug addicted bath salt face-eating user as you can get.

When someone asked him on the blog if he was suicidal -

McAfee said...

Don't have a knife. And I enjoy living. Suicide is

absurdly redundant. The world, from the very begining,

hurls viruses, accidents, hungry animals, defective DNA -

and uncountable more - in an attempt to kill us. It

always succeeds. Suicide is simply aiding and abetting.

http://www.whoismcafee.com/

Clearly a man that has lost his faculties.

Serious question: Why do so many people empathise with McAfee's plight?

From where I stand he looks like wealthy man who lost direction, turned to drugs and likely killed a man.

Techies read a lot of genre fiction with anti-heroes on the run, and that kind of thing. Maybe even some political sympathy, McAfee as an example of "going Galt".

Who is Galt?

"John Galt is a fictional character in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged (1957)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

What I meant was: Who is John Galt?

A fictional character.

Ah, the lesser seen cousin of Poe's Law: any sufficiently confused exchange on the Internet is indistinguishable from an Abbot and Costello routine.

If only it were so! Profound confusion would be much easier to spot in a world that worked like that.

tednaleid, you seem to be dead. Perhaps posting a link to wikipedia with no other content auto-triggered something.

We are!

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means. Fleeing countries for possibly being responsible for other peoples' deaths isn't quite the same thing as stopping work to avoid being leeched dry. Regardless of whether you think the latter action is silly, they're hardly similar.

Yes, but we can pretend. Life is more exciting that way.

Best one-sentence explanation of the McAfee blog phenomenon over the past month or so that I've seen.

All humans need and deserve empathy: healthy/unhealthy, good/evil, innocent/criminal. In particular, empathy often provides psychological healing, although it won't do him much good personally unless it reaches him.

I believe he should be treated humanely, though I do not know why empathy is required to do so.

From my perspective, it's because as a fellow human I can imagine his thoughts and feelings and in turn care about them that I believe he should be treated humanely. That imagining (and caring) is empathy. Where does your belief in humane treatment come from?

I suppose I set that as the baseline without needing to specify an appeal to innate humanity, so I agree.

It might be what enables you to treat the subject humanely in the first place. It seems it would certainly make it easier, at least. Advocating empathy isn't the same as being soft on crime. It's perfectly possible to punish for crimes, even with death, and still display empathy and compassion.

The part of the plight I empathize with is where the police want to question him, not over the phone, but in a place where they can both question him unfairly and also have the possibility to detain him before trial, for months.

FYI: This is Belize, not Afghanistan. I know to many US-ians with limited world views, they may seem like the same things, but they aren't. Comments like this reflect poorly on you.

In Belize or the US it's the same. Police want to question at their own facility so they can employ unfair methods and detain for trial if they wish. I did put "months" instead of "years" because presumably in Belize it's not as bad as in the US.

Although it's more interesting to imagine he was found due to the outing of a VICE photographer's EXIF data[1], it's probably more likely he gave himself up at the advice of his attorney in Guatemala[2].

[1]: http://www.mobileprivacy.org/2012/12/vice-com-publishes-excl...

[2]: http://www.vice.com/read/john-mcafee-is-in-guatemala-city-an...

This means the VICE metadata of the image the published was correct, and his "I edited the EXIF data" story was a lie: he was in Guatemala (specifically, along the Rio Dulce in Parque Nacional Rio Dulce).

Also, just yesterday he posted saying that he would be meeting with Guatemalan officials this morning: http://www.whoismcafee.com/guatemala/

He admitted it in that post you linked to:

    Yesterday was chaotic due to the accidental release of 
    my exact co-ordinates by an unseasoned technician at 
    Vice headquarters.

That's a shame.. Vice produces some interesting content. Hopefully this won't cause too much damage to their reputation.

I don't think they'd care either way. Vice is gonzo journalism (and I love them for it).

"The Radioactive Beasts of Chernobyl" - my favorite episode of The Vice Guide to Travel: http://m.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-radioactive-b...

Another great episode is the one where they visit North Korea, and sing karaoke to "Anarchy in the U.K.": http://m.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-nor...

And that is one of the reasons why I don't care about GPS in my cameras

Camera phones are a different story, but the GPS in my is so bad it is more likely to not get a location (except outdoors, oops)

I'd like to know details on how Vice got access to Mcafee so quickly.

And the people analysing it as a cardboard cut-out were also wrong.

Reading about McAfee on wikipedia, I found this one interesting relating to the paranoia point of the story:

"In a 2012 article in Mensa Bulletin, the magazine of American Mensa, he stated that being the developer of the first commercial anti-virus program has made him "the most popular hacking target", adding "Hackers see hacking me as a badge of honor". He added that for his own security he has other people buy his computer equipment for him, uses pseudonyms for setting up computers and logging in, and changes his IP address several times a day."

Sounds like RMS...

In what way? I'm no huge fan of RMS, but McAffe is in a whole different league of "weird relationship with computers and the internet".

Just a few examples:

“I sometimes use Google's search engine, and I sometimes use DuckDuckGo. When I use a search engine, it is always from a machine that isn't mine and that other people also use. I never identify myself to the site, of course.” http://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html

“I am unwilling to identify myself in order to connect to the Internet. For instance, if a hotel gives a user name and password to each room, I won't use that system, since it would identify me. I would need some other way to connect.” https://secure.mysociety.org/admin/lists/pipermail/developer...

“I refuse to have supermarket frequent buyer cards of my own because they are a form of surveillance.

I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance devices. They all enable the phone system to record where the user goes, and many (perhaps all) can be remotely converted into listening devices.

When I need to call someone, I ask someone nearby to let me make a call.

I absolutely refuse to take Amtrak trains because they check passengers ID (sometimes, not all the time)” http://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html

Love that one

"When I need to call someone, I ask someone nearby to let me make a call."

"They say the trial will last 30 days"

    McAffee, trial, 30 days

Haha I see what you did there :)

Looks like it's time to open up another packet of popcorn kernels, this movie is starting to get even more interesting. In all seriousness though, I may have said else-wise earlier but provided John is given a chance to defend himself and isn't killed or framed for the murder before the trial, if he's telling the truth hopefully it all works out in the end.

"isn't killed or framed for the murder before the trial"

He could certainly be guilty and the sole source of all this drama, you know. He's been a very unreliable narrator since the beginning.

This seems compatible with his being guilty. If he is guilty (and I make no statement either way, really have no idea) then I'd still hope he's found guilty legitimately, rather than being framed or assassinated.

Again you push the idea that he's fully sincere and mentally grounded in any fears of "framing" and "assassination". He is not a well man from his writings/behaviors and will hopefully find the care he needs in prison or elsewhere if not found guilty.

I really don't think it's related to his mental state. The possibility that he's being unjustly chased by local police is not at all mutually exclusive with the (seemingly pretty likely) possibility that he's mentally unwell.

Are charges of murder and running a drug lab necessarily "unjust"?

You've decided his innocence already, the rest of us require something more than his word.

> You've decided his innocence already, the rest of us require something more than his word.

What the fuck, man. I haven't decided anything. I don't know enough about the case to even speculate. Go take your preconceived notions elsewhere, and stop criticizing me for things I haven't even said.

EXIF metadata: ruining people's lives since 1995

John was interviewed on the Joe Rogan podcast on Nov. 27 when he was still on the run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GmwSgCfn38. It's worth a listen if you want to hear his side of the story (though it's quite cringeworthy).

It starts at about 18:40.

This is an interesting interview, McAfee doesn't sound insane at all, in fact this entire interview sounds exactly the opposite, he is rather put together and well spoken.

Great job Vice Magazine! Good Journalism.

(Leak aside, this is probably for the best though.)

Why does following the McAfee story feel like watching a soap opera?

Because this is the kind of things soap operas are made from?

Nice job VICE magazine

I think he went to Guatemala for asylum on purpose

I think he said that he was planning on meeting with Guatemalan officials. Looks like it was a great plan.

Except it didn't work out: EFE reports that the speaker of the Guatemaltecan government, Francisco Cuevas, announced that McAfee will be returned to Belize in the next hours.

I doubt that McAfee will be extradited shortly. He hired Telesforo Guerra, a notorious lawyer (or abogangster, as we call them in Guatemala) who has successfully prevented the US Government from extraditing Guatemala's former President, Francisco Portillo, for the past 3 years after being accused of laundering $15MM.

So, crazy like a fox it seems.

White collar crime isn't murder, though.

At least Alfonso Portillo is a Guatemaltecan national. McAfee is an illegal alien. We'll see what happens...

I forgot to type /sarcasm before "Looks like it was a great plan."

Yeah I don't think thhe VICE screw up was planned...according to McAfee himself

http://www.whoismcafee.com/guatemala/

Vice Magazine reporters are indeed with me in Guatemala. Yesterday was chaotic due to the accidental release of my exact co-ordinates by an unseasoned technician at Vice headquarters. We made it to safety in spite of this handicap. I had to cancel numerous interviews with the press yesterday because of this and I apologize to all of those affected

> I think he went to Guatemala for asylum on purpose

Doubtful, or he would have contacted the Guatemalan authorities immediately.

What more likely happened: he illegally entered Guatemala, either to hide or to go further into hiding to another country, got busted because he stupidly published a picture with EXIF data in it, got arrested and then claimed he was looking for asylum.

According to his blog, he might not get deported:

> My lawyer just brought a judge to the jail and the judge issued a stay order until a higher judge can review the case. This effectively stops Immigration from returning me to the Belize border. So….. the urgency is eased a bit.

Not sure how his side of story goes, all news seems to be incoherent: He didn't pay 2M$ to that party, so they made the police kill his neighbor in order to take him for questioning and then kill him?

I am impressed that he hasn't died earlier from the drugs - the guy is 67 and looks 50. He must drunk a lot of tea. If they find him guilty, his life is over.

Vice footage of the detainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWqiVhRa0xI

...just out of curiosity, what's the worst thing that could happen to this guy if he just comes back to the US?

I wonder if he will get a 30 day trial..

He should have made a beeline for the Ecuadorian embassy and pulled an Assange maneuver.

Well the good thing is that now McAfee has the entire world watching what happens to him - so it's more likely that he won't be killed.

We will see though.

I would be pretty angry at Vice Magazine if I was McAfee right now.

It's unfortunate he's batshit crazy right now or he could probably get the US Embassy involved and fight his extradition and asked that he be deported back to the US, instead of Belize.

He's evading a US lawsuit. He doesn't want to go back to the US.

I think I'd rather be back in the US facing a civil action, than on trial for murder in Belize.

Wouldn't that be worst of both worlds? Going through civil action and then being extradited to Belize to face criminal trial?

Except in very rare circumstances, the United States does not extradite its citizens to face criminal charges in other countries.

@learc83: exactly. if he wasn't having a psychotic episode, he'd realize that. unfortunately his mind is probably telling him that somehow going to Belize > going to the US.

> Except in very rare circumstances, the United States does not extradite its citizens to face criminal charges in other countries.

Wait, what, really? They've been pitching a fit about Gary McKinnon, Christopher Tappin, Assange, etc.

I guess I should pay more attention to the laws of other nations.

None of those guys are American citizens and they are all wanted for breaking US laws - very different than a US citizen being wanted in Belize. The US loves to have foreign nationals who have violated US laws extradited to the United States, as well as having US citizens who have broken US laws extradited to the US - but it rarely honors extradition requests of its own citizens to other countries. So if you are an American wanted abroad, the safest place you can be is in the United States - assuming of course that you are not also wanted in the US.

"They've been pitching a fit about"

The difference is that America answers to no one.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com