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Comment by trengof | Hacker News Reader

Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich Anyone?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/28/business/Doubl...

Why else Ireland? I highly think it was picked for tax purposes.

Anyone dismissing this as purely a tax-play doesn't do service to the thriving, vibrant and diversive tech community that Dublin has. Anyone based here for even a few weeks would know that.

Dublin's #1 strength over places like London and Berlin is it's geographic size, which makes meetups accessible, leaders and role models available, and creates a friendly and familiar feel, where we all fee like we are part of something bigger than the startups that are here.

Side note: To anyone here on HN visiting Dublin in the future, feel free to connect with us, you'd be very welcome -- @ me on Twitter... @EamonLeonard

Have you seen our Datacenter Infrastructure (Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc)? have you seen our climate (mostly cold, perfect for said datacenters)? We have an educated workforce, are close to mainland Europe, and who doesn't want to work in the home of the Black Stuff (Guinness). Tax could be an incentive, but think of the rest we have also.

A native English speaking work force at lower salaries than in the UK helps too :-)

Though, these days, the median wage in Ireland is actually substantially higher than in the UK.

Don't forget we all speak native English.

Aontaím leat!

Why anywhere else? Ireland si the "India of Europe" (English fluency, low salaries, decent education) and it has the best tax arrangements among similar countries.

Microsoft, Facebook, IBM and the likes, they all basically serve the EU market from Dublin, and it's been like that for 20 years -- the "Celtic Tiger" phenomenon was based on this sort of activity: combining EU membership, low taxes, low salaries and cultural affinities to lure multinationals' HQs. Other EU members tolerated this because, when it started, Ireland was dirt poor. When the bubble burst, there was a lot of schadenfreude sweeping the continent...

I wouldn't say salaries are that low, Ireland has (or had until recently) one of the highest minimum wage and average industrial wages in the world. The recession has brought wages down somewhat, but you can't compare Ireland to India with regards to pay.

I said "India of Europe"... I was in Dublin last week. Compared to Milan, Paris, London or even Manchester, the Irish cost of living today is much lower. I know quite a few people who moved to Dublin to work in IT, then bounced off to England looking for higher wages.

Of course it's not India, it's still an European country with a noticeable welfare state, but I'd argue that you won't find better English speakers for the same amount of money anywhere in Europe.

"...but I'd argue that you won't find better English speakers for the same amount of money anywhere in Europe."

Wow, I must admit I've never heard this opinion expressed before. That was why I was surprised in my previous comment. All you hear in Ireland is that "wages are too high, we're not cost competitive" blah-blah-blah.

I've heard that you can get programmers in places like Germany, Scandinavia and parts of Eastern Europe (esp. countries like Estonia, Poland and Latvia) for relatively cheap and they nearly all speak good/great English too. Maybe that is for more contract work than for hiring on a more permanent basis though, I've never hired anyone myself.

Can I ask, what line of work are you in? You seem to have a broad perspective on this.

I do IT consulting, with a background in sysadmin, probably more customer-facing stuff than the average developer.

For this sort of relatively labour-intensive sectors, places like France, Germany and Nordic countries are way too expensive. Eastern Europe is a hit & miss, safest being Czechia, but they're also a few more hours away from the US (in terms of flight and timezone), and they're not as dirt-poor as in 1989 anymore, so prices have gone up. Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal) would be great, except their English is lousy, tax arrangements are byzantine, their salespeople will screw you at every turn, and their approach to customer-service can be borderline disgraceful (and I can say that, being one of them! lol).

I don't think Irish wages are too high -- they certainly went up in the last 20 years, as the country improved dramatically and sort-of aligned with other EU members, so the economy has to rebalance a bit, but that was to be expected. Overall, the Irish system still provides very good value for money, I'd say.

Thanks for the perspective, hadnt heard that viewpoint before.

Maybe I should stay in Ireland to do my startup rather than trying to get the visa in the US!

Low irish taxes mean US subsidiaries generally go there, even if they're not trying to perform tax evasion.

I'm disappointed the Dutch Sandwich doesn't get its own native language support, then!

High English fluency in the Netherlands plus a relatively small population makes it less of a priority than other languages.

I wonder why no they don't talk about it in EU Parliament? It's not like it's a big secret anymore, all the big companies are using it, same time EU bureaucrats are discussing about all kind of new taxes, raising taxes etc. Why not start by closing the loopholes?

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