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Comment by Rotdhizon | Hacker News Reader

I know absolutely nothing about Mexico in terms of geography or driving so I wonder how feasible an EV that you presumably constantly have to charge is going to fare. In the US, a range of 77 miles is a complete non starter. You'd have to charge it every single day. If not multiple times a day in some peoples cases.

It's interesting that info about the car is only half the article. The other half is a commentary on how US politicians are desperately trying to keep foreign EVs out of the country, lest it hurt corporate profits.

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> In the US, a range of 77 miles is a complete non starter. You'd have to charge it every single day. If not multiple times a day in some peoples cases.

It's true that some people drive more than 77 miles per day. But a pretty big chunk of people never do, except road trips/vacations. It could easily be worth it to buy a cheap EV for everyday use and then rent a vehicle for long trips.

exactly - the rejection of short range EVs was when they cost as much as a normal car

if the short range EV is now much cheaper, people will adapt to the restriction because it's an affordable option

Yep, you can pick up used Leafs for super cheap (under $10k, sometimes substantially) and if they fit your use case, they're an amazing deal. Mostly helpful as a second car for a family, or as a city car for someone who never plans to road trip in it.

Would have to be very affordable. Like well under $10K. Otherwise I'll just buy a used ICE vehicle and have a lot more flexibility in how I use it.

Even Cargo Bicycles cost more than $10k. I think a 6 seater people mover is worth far more than those.

I'd buy a 6 seater with this range but not with the speed limitations (I think it is like 50-60 kph which is a non starter)

You can buy used ICE cars for $10k easy.

Like really really easy.

Apologies if I missed your point.

(2014 Leaf leaseholder here)

At the time we were a 2-car household and used the gas car for longer trips. That being said, there were a few times we had to scramble:

Once, when it was very cold my wife and I both needed to drive a long distance. I took the Leaf because I had access to a charger.

On our last year of the lease we ended up having to move 90 miles away. When we bought the Leaf, we never planned on driving that far. Due to circumstances, I had to make multiple 90-mile trips in the Leaf.

---

Case in point: I now only recommend that class of Leaf to people who need a 3rd car for a teenager and no intention of moving.

We considered getting a used Leaf but my wife had too much range anxiety, even for vehicles with 70 miles of range. I plotted out on a map how many trips she would have to take in a day (to work, to doctor, to pick up kid, to dentist, to store, etc.) in order to come even close to 70 miles. Of course, she never goes that far around town (only when visiting relatives, when I typically drive and we take a PHEV). But the RA was too great, so we got another PHEV. It has been useful at times to be able to both go 50+ miles in a day without any concern, but it's literally a handful of times over the years.

> (only when visiting relatives, when I typically drive and we take a PHEV). But the RA was too great, so we got another PHEV. It has been useful at times to be able to both go 50+ miles in a day without any concern

After the Leaf, we ended up with the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV and a Model 3. The PHEV had so many problems that I'll never recommend them, and dumped it early at a loss and went all-electric. (Both cars). We will never go back to gas.

IMO, the main thing EVs need in the US is a good publicity campaign, more chargers, and better legislation of chargers. The technology is now "good enough" if you have access to a charger where you park overnight, and "almost there" if you can't charge overnight. (IE, if you rely on street parking stick with gas.)

Sorry to hear about the lousy Pacifica. We have a friend who had a good experience with it, but one reason we never thought seriously about it is Chrysler's reputation for reliability.

I think you're right about the tech being "good enough" in many places, but it depends on weather (colder climates are not as good). I also know people who live in temperate climates that refuse to have their only car be an EV because of emergencies and power outages. As someone with two cars, I don't have that concern, but I can understand why someone (especially an older person) would not want to go all in on electric, if the grid is not super reliable (and would likely be offline in a natural disaster, when they would need to charge and possibly flee).

I live in the Northeast. The Leaf had problems with extreme cold, and my 2018 Model 3 lost a lot of range because it (surprise) had resistive heating.

My 2022 Model Y and 2026 Hyundai Ioniq 9 have heat pumps and generally work well in extreme cold. It's also nice that I can preheat them in the garage. Most importantly, they don't lose range overnight in extreme cold like the 2018 Model 3 did. I charge the cars before large storms, which is much easier than fighting traffic at the gas station!

It is weird point to be in. Almost a daily use of that range or significant part of it. As with less than daily use and short distances fuel is lot less critical. I am use case of going to shops a few times a week. Savings on fuel is not big thing as there isn't much used.

And then when I actually need to travel longer distances the range is much more important.

So EV would need to be very cheap to start making sense overall.

Or you own more than vehicle. Plenty of families own multiple vehicles, and they don't all need to have tons of range.

> Or you own more than vehicle. Plenty of families own multiple vehicles, and they don't all need to have tons of range.

I wish there still were small and very cheap EVs to fill this niche.

We had the Fiat 500e (somewhat infamous) $82 lease as an extra car because for $0 down and $82/month, why not. Range was small but it was perfect for around town, and had other cars for other things. Anytime I was driving within town I'd just take the Fiat.

At $8500, I could justify having a 77 mile range electric car with a top speed of 30ish mph. That would take care of every in-town trip, but I couldn't do a full commute to work with it because the most sensible way of doing that involves a highway. If it could manage 50mph for 15 minutes, it could go on the highway and I could recharge at or near the office.

The cheapest EV currently available in the US is the Chevy Bolt, at $29000, about three times the price. A Bolt has four times the range, but still not quite enough to go one way on my most frequent "long drive".

> The cheapest EV currently available in the US is the Chevy Bolt, at $29000

The interesting thing is that this appears to be largely because the manufacturers, rightly or wrongly, do not think that the US market _wants_ cheaper EVs. The id.Polo (about 20k with incentives in most countries) won't launch in the US, for instance, even though the id.4 did.

> The cheapest EV currently available in the US is the Chevy Bolt, at $29000, about three times the price.

You can also get used EVs/PHEVs. We got a PHEV with 20 miles of EV range for $14k, and you can get used Leafs for under $10k.

>but still not quite enough to go one way on my most frequent "long drive"

...without a charging stop.

> I know absolutely nothing about Mexico in terms of geography or driving so I wonder how feasible an EV that you presumably constantly have to charge is going to fare.

Hey at least you admitted that upfront. Average driving speed in Mexico City is 15 km/h so one would have to spend 8h driving to deplete the battery in a day. Typical commutes are perhaps 1h one-way but again, distance wise probably only about 40 km both ways. So this 125km range easily covers it for most people.

I think energy cost is more of an issue for most. electricity is expensive in Mexico City especially compared to base salaries. And electrical infrastructure was never built to handle high power consumption. Most apartments have a single 30A breaker for the entire house. Most heating is done by gas and air conditioning is not widely used. For most people charging speed will likely be limited to about 10A at 120V.

>charge it every single day.

That's pretty much standard operating procedure for any EV. That's one of the perks of owning an EV. Plug it in when you get home from work, and have a full "tank" every morning. Plus you get the cabin preheating using the wall electricity.

If you have a charger at home, or at work, why does it matter if you have to charge it daily or weekly? Yes, for some lifestyles, range matters. For others, a 125 km range is perfectly acceptable

For a significant segment of the US population, that thing wouldn't get them to work and back, so they'd have to charge it both at home and at work. And in many cases, forget running any errands, picking up kids from daycare, etc.

And minimum speed on US interstates is typically 40mph, so that reduces its usability even more.

28% of trips are under a mile, 52% under three, 64% under five, 79% under ten, 93% under twenty-five, and 98% under 50 miles.

Only 0.8% of the trips are over 100 miles!

> For a significant segment of the US population, that thing wouldn't get them to work and back

0.8% is not significant.

I don't think this car is designed for them, similar to how trucks are not designed for urban areas. Not every car has to cater to every demographic.

People move around: that's what cars are for. Trucks may not be "designed for urban areas" (whatever that means), but they certainly go into them on a daily basis.

> For a significant segment of the US population, that thing wouldn't get them to work and back, so they'd have to charge it both at home and at work.

What does 'significant' mean here? I find it hard to imagine that a _large_ number of people have a round-trip of like 100km to work; that would be horrendous.

Really? that's a bit over 30 miles each way. It doesn't sound at all unusual to me.

I think you wildly overestimate how many Americans are white-collar workers commuting 100 miles to a 6-figure job. A <$10k EV was never even remotely aiming at that market to begin with.

With a range of 77 miles, I wouldn't make it to work and back. Everyone I know (yes, it's anecdotal, but a widely-shared one) has to commute on roads where the average speed is well above 30mph.

This is a non-starter for the US.

> You'd have to charge it every single day. If not multiple times a day in some peoples cases.

Charging is not a problem when a car is stationary. It is parked next to a building, building usually has electricity (unless you are Amish).

I don't know why most people don't understand electricity is available everywhere, but petrol is only available at gas stations. You have to somewhere to pump gas, a major inconvenience.

28% of trips are under a mile, 52% under three, 64% under five, 79% under ten, 93% under twenty-five, and 98% under 50 miles.

This is the kind of misleading fact that motivated me to make my post. (Former 2014 Leaf leaseholder.)

Americans buy the car for the 1% trips. In my case, most of my car trips are short, but most of my milage is from long-range trips.

What's more informative is this post that explains Mexican driving behavior: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48634740

> Americans buy the car for the 1% trips. In my case, most of my car trips are short, but most of my milage is from long-range trips.

How many of these long trips are you making? Depending on number might be more economical just to rent for that.

At least once a week. I commute 120 miles round trip one day a week, 180 miles 1-2 times a month, and 300+ miles 6-10 times a year.

I also have 3 kids, a dog, and don't live near a city. If I lived in a city dogless and childless something like Zipcar would make much more sense.

BTW: The "transaction cost" (time) of frequent car rentals is a non-starter. One of the things I hate about renting a car is that every time it's a different car, some I like, some I don't. I just want to pick out a car I like, have it ready when I need it, have it set up the way I like it, and have my "box of crap" in the trunk where I know where it is.

I don't want to navigate through a young ambitious salesperson trying to sell insurance, or the AI car scanner charging me hallucinated wear and tear.

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