“What happened” was just that some people got rich and powerful and their real personalities showed through. This is not a new thing in any sense at all, from Rockefeller to Bill Gates – both “technology entrepreneurs”.
“What happened” was just that some people got rich and powerful and their real personalities showed through. This is not a new thing in any sense at all, from Rockefeller to Bill Gates – both “technology entrepreneurs”.
OPs timeline is somewhat off. They posit a golden era for the 1980s-2007 but that’s not right. Tech CEOs have often been hard-charging salespeople and businessmen. Look at early Wired magazines and there was much celebration of random rich guys in suits, as much as the nerdy tech creators. This was the “suit/hacker” dichotomy.
Google was the company that really exploded that paradigm, from their rise to prominence circa 2002 or so, to their IPO and post-IPO halo, around 2005-2007.
Now the nerds didn’t need the suits. They would run their own company.
They were shockingly wealthy and powerful but it was made to seem as a kind of distraction from their true nature. They marketed their own virtue and renunciation, both to the public, and to their own staff. Their business model rejected the previous search engine paradigm (backroom deals and paying for placement) in favor of a new one (complex math to produce the best results). They told the public and their staff the famous “don’t be evil”, and also “focus on the user and all else follows”. There was even a pronouncement that Google would never do such tawdriness as horoscopes.
The theme was that nerdiness was a kind of incorruptibility because a nerd was honest, unconcerned with social status, and unworldly. Let them into your life and they’ll make it all better. Larry Page and Sergey Brin cultivated that image, holding internal and external events where they made themselves look ever nerdier than they actually are, even wearing lab coats.
Now, this didn’t last and was never true. Soon after the IPO, Larry and Sergey bought themselves not just a corporate jet, but a commercial airliner. They justified it as something that was “good for the world” because they could use it to get entire teams of NGO workers on missions of mercy. It actually became a party plane, as far as I know.
Nerds as honest or incorruptible? In popular media, from Revenge of the Nerds to The Simpsons to Big Bang Theory, the defining feature of “nerds” is that they have poor social skills and less regard for their fellow humans.
Now people like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk look like the nerds that now have money and power! Ah ha! “It doesn’t matter what others think of me now! This is revenge for looking down on me before!”
Nerd is geek plus low social skills. He may be just awkward and once you get used to it he is actually nice. Or, he may be as asshole. But always weird.
harrall is right that to the general populace, nerds/geeks are interchangeable terms for people who prefer to study/play with computers rather than socialise with the rest of us.
That doesn’t necessarily mean they have a better moral compass and will always do the right thing. Those are images that nerds put onto themselves.
But I genuinely find it weird that Musk and CEOs in general are called geeks or nerds. Their whole thing is that they made a choice to spend less time doing actual tech work and a lot more time doing business, managing, dealing, etc. Whole their success is predicated on their ability to make people do what they want. They are not spending time tinkering with computers, they are spending time schmoozing for investment contacts. That is literal opposite of a nerd or a geek.
In the "revenge of the nerds" drama, they would be ultrasocial jocks bullies with cool computer game at home.
There's also this age-old belief that if you do something out of passion, you're willing to pull more hours, and do whatever it takes to reach your goals.
I also believe that nerds, whatever thing they are obsessed with, make their nerdiness a personality defending trait. Their nerdiness is their personality. And if others aren't as willing to commit, they're simply frauds or wannabes.
Probably one of the most ego-crushing realizations (if you're a nerd) is to discover that there are people out there MUCH more talented and higher performing than what you'll ever be, but with none of the obsession or pride. In other profession that's not really a topic. You can be a top performer in other professions, without a deep interest, clock out 4 daily, and never think about work outside work.
In tech, however, it is too often assumed that you must be consumed by tech. Otherwise you're not really that passionate about it.
You could clock out, but I don't think the top performers ever stop thinking about work. Everything you've written here has to be wrong.
But I also knew other top performers that basically had geopolitics as their hobby, and would study OSINT (open-source intelligence) when they came home.
And obviously there are many other professions where you can do really well, and don't think a second about work when your day is over. Really depends on how your work is structured!
This is certainly incorrect.
passion is necessary but not sufficient to be the best. you can be top 20% without passion, but you can't be top 1%
However I think this really misses the mark:
> Probably one of the most ego-crushing realizations (if you're a nerd) is to discover that there are people out there MUCH more talented and higher performing than what you'll ever be, but with none of the obsession or pride. In other profession that's not really a topic. You can be a top performer in other professions, without a deep interest, clock out 4 daily, and never think about work outside work.
This is a strawman based around immature, fragile-ego individuals. There are plenty of nerds who realize intelligence, talent, and resourcefulness are completely orthogonal traits from interest in tech. The former is over-represented in online discourse, and the latter is more common in engineering leadership in top companies. You can't really be a top-performer in any large-scale effort without realizing that there are top performers in all domains, and they have insights you don't have. You can't do great things if you don't leave space to learn about your own blind spots, and have a productive dialogue with people who have a completely different mental framework than you.
Maybe this is just a human trait in general? Seems every person from any subculture fall victim to "fame and wealth" basically turning them into an evil and greedy person, maybe 1/1000 manages to still stay human in such transition. Or is there any subcultures in particular where most people seem to actually be able to handle "fame and wealth" without the problems that you've observed people from other subcultures?
I'm well aware, I'm personally early-retired person with financial independence, and of course I have friends too :) With that said, many of them are greedy, some in big ways others in smaller ways, even if they're generally good people too.
I think it's the combination of "famous + wealthy" that seems to poison people, pick one of them and it doesn't seem so bad, but both together seems like a recipe for disaster.
Lately I’ve been doing a sort of street performance which makes it very likely people will remember me and that again motivates me to be nice.
On the other hand I hear Elon Musk comes across better in person than he does on X and Trump seemed pretty cordial meeting with Zohran Mamdani.
Musk is basically a nerd who's ever surprised at what he can get away with, other times over his head in technical matters, and still other times suffering the South African typr of elite arrested development.
Trump recognised that he was facing a equal or better operator. Musk would feel insecure in the same situation. That's nerd. Maybe Trump has a similar training as actors (by actors?), just not to the frequencies normies expect :)
I’m sure there are lots of sophisticates on here who enjoy that stuff along with a wider variety of literature. But the ones I know who love it are almost exclusively into it.
It's almost tautological that most people enjoy middle brow or low brow cultural products. Reality TV shows, soap operas, romance novels, professional wrestling, etc.
Star Trek, Star Wars, Dune, LOTR, Asimov, Clarke, Hobbes, are all nerd-dom mainstays, like D&D.
Also a lot of those properties had a lot of substance there decades ago and have since been watered down and turned into memeable cliches.
Geeks - Obsessed over fictional world(s). Nerds - Obsessed over the real world (or a specific part of it).
Comics Geek Math Nerd
There's a decent amount of overlap though.
Which subcultures do not tend to value these things?
Woz, maybe he actually was a nerd.
He was also the poster boy for tech nerd assholes, until the scale of tech assholery shifted wildly for the worse, and he switched to legacy building mode.
Some guys, like Gates, seemed to have extremely opinionated views on what Microsoft products should have been like. That should be a given, as he was the co-founder and CEO, but when you see older footage of him, he has (had?) this "This doesn't make sense to me, so it is shit" way of seeing things. He also seemed to have a typical brutally honest way of reviewing stuff, which can make one come off as very abrasive.
Can't remember where I read it, but there was this psychology paper that studied elite performers, those that were considered to be at the very top of their game (sports, business, art, culinary, etc.) - and toxic/abrasive leadership is just more accepted, because the top performers strive for perfection, no mater the cost. Their subordinates and co-workers just consider it "tough love", instead of abusive behavior.
What do you mean by "persona"? Do you mean he's not really giving money away?
For instance if there was a homeless person on my street and I figured that giving them $500 would have good odds of having them OD and no longer being on my street... what looks like a charitable act very much isn't. So while it would contribute to a charitable persona it wouldn't reflect personality.
Indeed. Even in the middle ages rich people leaned heavily on charity to whitewash their legacy. I mean, the Catholic church even made this accessible to the masses through indulgence.
This is it.
Nerdy women are in fiber arts, fandom (especially generative fandom), etc. Nerdy women definitely exist, they just tend to take their penchant for nerd/obsessive/systems thinking to more 'appropriately female' areas. (For example, things like indie perfume houses, or my obsession with the mechanics of bra manufacturing and fitting). They also tend to pick apart relationships instead of objects: This is why female fandom is so dominated by tropes and boxes to shove characters into. They like the organization and clean categories just like male nerds do, they just apply them to different domains.
They also usually have a different but related stereotype. We're pathetic shut in cat ladies instead of pimply nerds. It's also not usually considered a problem until we hit ~25 (or whatever age the culture at the time considers a woman ready for motherhood) since a shy, obsessive, escapist woman who doesn't want to engage with people can make a fine wife/gf. Most of the grief is directed at us for not caring about our appearance enough more than anything else.
Whatever tenuous link there was between the two, only existed as long as computers were not really seen as a path to wealth and power. Because then a smart person with the capability to enter fields traditionally associated with wealth and power choosing computers reflected putting personal curiosity and interest over pursuing wealth and power as the sole objective.
People who spend their entire life in front of computers should not be the ones with the keys to society yet here we are.
This might've been different 50 years ago but it's the number one striver job there is.
Again ... maybe it's just my experience. None of these were super life threatening conditions. However I did go under the operating knife at least once; in that case, the operation was successful, healed me of the condition, and never caused any negative side-effects to this day.
Maybe there's a difference in regulation. A lot of the "entrepreneurial" landscape seems unregulated and a kind of Wild West, and I suppose that allows for certain kinds of personalities to succeed by suspect means. The medical field, by contrast, is quite regulated and there are very real risks to malpractice. Thus, I think it attracts better people and allows them to succeed.
Maybe it's similar to how dictators often take over in poor or struggling countries, whereas they find it harder to get a foothold in developed, prosperous countries with strong institutions.
This all changes when they get more difficult patients. As someone who's been told bogus by doctors, even lightly pushing back many will completely change demeanor, you're no longer some easy money but a risk/annoyance. So your good experiences basically just show doctors in their 'perfect state'.
This isn't the same in every country as you say it's a regulated field and the regulations differ wildly from country to country and so does the view and behaviour of doctors.
My point is that, when the institution supports and encourages virtuous behaviour, the actors within the institution are more likely to practice virtue.
I think this is also largely the point of Plato's Republic.
You're also missing your interlocutor's point.
> Why would I want to make it difficult or put impediments in the way of my doctors doing their job well?
Doctors very often don't do a good job with complex cases - like rare conditions, complicated histories, or multiple interacting factors - and some will treat the patient as "difficult" or "an impediment" when they (the doctor) haven't grokked the situation. Very few patients are trying to be an impediment - 99% are trying to help achieve a good outcome, though sometimes their definition of that is misguided or impossible - but it is frustrating to be treated that way by someone who genuinely knows less about your situation than you do. ("Doc, I've taken that test before, and I've tried that medication before - I know it's not in your EMR, but here is a printout - what are you looking for this time that you expect to be different than before?" That conversation doesn't always go well - and even when it does, you're likely to be told "I can't [read: hospital / insurance policy won't permit] try something else until we've done those again" - so you'll end up going back to step A with each new provider.)
In fairness to doctors, many of them work within horrible constraints: it's impossible to get a handle on a complex situation in one twenty minute appointment every six months, and there's little point trying when it's likely the patient will be reassigned to a new provider by next year, anyway. The tension between medical ethics and practice and hospital (let alone, in the US, insurance) ethics and practice is enormous, and (for the individual doctors and patients caught up in it) intractable.
You are extremely lucky, then.
As a man, I've been gaslit by my doctors about my depression. My PC in my early 20s told me I was just lazy and needed to get a "real" job.
For women, by all accounts, it's much worse. I have not met a woman yet who has not had a story about some doctor treating her like a child, minimizing her pain, etc.
I don't deny there's privilege involved in my case. Again, this seems an institutional problem. The medical field as a whole needs more inclusive frameworks to deal with women's health, racial justice, LGBTIQ, ageism and much more. These are issues need to be addressed at an institution and even whole-of-society level. You can't expect each individual to independently solve for them all. At the very least, they need education.
Creating a society where the unscrupulous are not unduly rewarded has been a long, painstaking slog over millennia that still hasn't been solved. And whatever progress has been made is always fragile as the lessons are so very easy to forget.
I remember when I was in high school knowing a bunch of people who wanted to be doctors (and had good grades). It was strange to me so many people wanted to be doctors so I asked why. The answer was one word: Money. In my adult life I have also heard of multiple people who demand to be called “doctor” in social situations.
“Virtuous” is not a word I’d associate at all with wanting to become a doctor. Veterinarians are a different matter, though.
For those that don't know, veterinarian education is just as rigorous, time consuming, and expensive as human medical education, yet the median annual wage for practicing veterinarians is $125,510.
It’s an incredibly stressful job with a huge rate of suicide.
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231010-the-acute-suic...
A lot of folk go into teaching because there's high demand for workers & the academic path is relatively accessible.
You're probably mostly right about social workers, but it's a vague term & there's at least some categories of social worker that fill the same appeal as teaching.
Virtuosity is so hard to define, I'd say there's some virtue in almost every career direction but less in some than others. Certainly in my experience tech entrepreneurship has some of the lowest levels I've encountered.
And by the time medical school and residency are done with them, many if not most will be sociopaths to rival all the top CEOs.
Post-CEO, he had completely refurbished his image via philanthropy, only to throw it away with the Epstein stuff.
It really demonstrates the nature of people. Richest guy on the planet for quite awhile, but can’t manage his relationships and spends his time chasing skirts. To the point where he’s a target for Epstein the apex predator.
In the Microsoft cinematic universe, Ballmer is the foil.
Its like hearing about how Ford supposedly increased wages so people could buy cars, but when you actually look at the details that was just the PR spin to having hired, worked to injury, then fired so many people that large wages were the only way to keep enough employees to run the factories by convincing people in other states to come blindly move in under the promise of money.
Most every "good" story about him outside of donating money later on ends up with not so great details and reality.
It's pretty well known he was a huge antisemite.
Then again, from what I understand, antisemitism was pretty popular in the US in the early 20th century. It was only after WWII that it became more of a taboo.
1) There is ample evidence of him being a huge nerd. You can find dozens of references about how sharp he was technically at Microsoft. Here's one of the better known blogs: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
He even published a paper on a Math problem in undergrad before dropping out to start MSFT: https://www.npr.org/2008/07/04/92236781/before-microsoft-gat...
2) I would challenge all the commenters claiming his philanthropic work is "falsified" or "just PR" or "mostly self-serving" to prove it, keeping in mind there are ample public records all over the place.
You can dislike a person, especially Gates who was famously a huge jerk, but really... let's stick to facts please.
Because doing something you're genuinely interested is virtuous relative to doing something for personal/reputational gain or due to other social pressures.
> some people got rich and powerful and their real personalities showed through
This could not be more deluded - the negative equivalent of the hustle culture myth: anyone can become a selfish asshole if they work hard enough. The idea that every person who's ever taken an academic interest in tech is just another William Gates III waiting to happen is a very weird way of looking at nerd culture.
Generally I'm not sure you'd be considered a nerd if you weren't too honest for your own good. Not that this covers all types of virtuous behavior - there do exist nasty scientists. (And there is some level of fraud/dishonesty in academia, too).
I have the feeling it probably teaches you something, or at least it should. Something not too unlike epistemic humility, maybe.
Most of the scientists I know can spend years of their life pursuing a hypothesis that turns out to be wrong, shrug their shoulders, and dive back into it. Technologists are all about output. If it's not outputting, you have to give up and seek a different avenue. Scientists (except the very famous and successful ones) tend to be humble and curious. Technologists less so.
But then you see people with very questionable morals having made a key discovery or having produced a fundamental technology. Reality is complicated
Yet he's also a sociopathic fascist arsehole. It turns out these traits are not all on the same axis.
The government also legitimately needs space launch capacity, they're a customer for that. Look at how commercial companies invest in the buildout of supplier infrastructure, or offer framework contracts to help suppliers to make necessary investments.
Shouldn't you? Bakers and chefs aren't just "interested in nerdy stuff like chemical reactions," they make food for people. Writers have ethical obligations, both individually and as a group?
I don’t know why you’d think “being interested in nerdy stuff like computers” would somehow translate into virtuous behavior.
The cultural perception of nerds being relentlessly bullied for the crime of having imaginations/GPAs/acne, I think, presented a culturally sympathetic view to the extent that the latent bro-ism caught some off guard, like we'd expect them to emerge from sweet gentle Stranger-Things style basement nerds to adulthoods as, say, Randall Munroe or something
> The cultural perception of nerds being relentlessly bullied for the crime of having imaginations/GPAs/acne, I think, presented a culturally sympathetic view to the extent that the latent bro-ism caught some off guard, like we'd expect them to emerge from sweet gentle Stranger-Things style basement nerds to adulthoods as, say, Randall Munroe or something
To emphasize that point, I think the assumption was that being bullied and ostracized would lead nerds to have greater empathy and be nice people, because they experienced how bad it is when people aren't nice.
But I think the reality, obvious in hindsight, is that was a totally unreasonable assumption. IIRC, the experience of abuse can actually create future abusers. With geeks/nerds, I think a fairly common outcome as been a combination of arrogance with a kind of social ineptness/unawareness that is not nice.
Can’t we just be adults interested in different topics and hobbies?