Hacker News Reader

Comment by error54 | Hacker News Reader

I fully support TOR and I think that overall it's a good thing for the internet but legally I don't know if he has a leg to stand on. Being an exit node operator carries these risks which he knew about so the court system has him there. The danger if he is tried and convicted is that all it sets a dangerous precedent for the rest of the TOR network.

Who's to say where the blame stops? Can the relay operators passing the packets along be convicted too? I hope for the sake of the TOR network that he gets off on the charges because if he does not, less and less people will be willing to be exit nodes which essentially means the end of the TOR network.

View on HN

Without knowing and understanding Austrian law you can't make such speculations. In the USA he wouldn't be breaking any laws.

Really? This surprises me. Do you have any research, evidence, articles to support this?

https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq.html.en

Unless I missed something, they don't touch legality of Tor, other than: "Further, we believe that running a Tor relay — including an exit relay that allows people to anonymously send and receive traffic — is lawful under U.S. law."

This doesn't say anything. I can "believe" anything that I want, but it doesn't make it so. I'm looking for articles with sound legal rationale and previous case outcomes that argue on the legality of a defendant's culpability as it pertains to a crime being committed on said defendant's Tor exit node.

No-one has ever been prosecuted for running a Tor node in the U.S., so the information you're looking for simply doesn't exist.

That's why we have to go on the beliefs of lawyers familiar with the area, instead. You could read about things like the Safe Harbor provisions of the DMCA to see why Internet service providers are generally not considered responsible for their users' actions, in the U.S.

The DMCA safe harbor (OCILLA)[1] protects against copyright issues. I don't have time to find the laws that apply more broadly. Any laws that protect service providers are going to apply. Tor is just a proxy.

I don't know why you'd think it wouldn't be protected just like an ISP from users who view kiddie porn or FedEx for shipping drugs. So long as you cooperate when the law comes knocking you should be fine.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_L...

I have friend here is the US with loads of bandwidth (he has a hosting business) and has talked about running a tor exit node, but fears that he puts his business at risk if he does that.

I'm interested to see why you don't think he'd be breaking any laws.

If he owns the equipment and runs the service, he could put his business at risk, yeah.

If he leases the hardware to a third individual and that third person/organization runs an exit node, then he is at a safe harbor.

I have experience running Tor nodes and can help if he is interested.

The Software Freedom Law Center has stated that in their legal opinion it is legal, however this does not mean that you won't get raided or harassed by law enforcement, it simply means you probably won't go to jail.

>> it simply means you probably won't go to jail.

...for a super long time. My bet (admittedly founded on nothing) is that they book you regardless.

What I would be worried about, especially in the US, would be the FBI joining the Tor network, blasting around CP and then arresting some random person to make an example of them. Given that we presently have laws and executive orders being enforced that seem to contradict the constitution, etc., I don't have a lot of confidence in what a lawyer thinks might happen if this went to trial. Once it's a hot button issue, everything pretty much goes out the window.

it simply means you probably won't go to jail.

Well, not go to prison. You go to jail while you're presumed innocent, right?

Your friend is smart.

If you want to run a tor exit node, create a new corporate entity for only that purpose, put it in its own cabinet, and put your lawyer on the corp documents.

If you can't do these things, just run a relay and be done with it - an exit node is not for you.

The legal theory here is that he should have common carrier status, like an ISP.

ISPs aren't generally liable for the things that their customers do over their network.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com