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Comment by bfkwlfkjf | Hacker News Reader

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If you look around at the country, you will see that the top echelons of wealth and power are held by a mix of christians and jews, if we divide it by religion. Further, the israel lobby does not equal jews, it equals the israel lobby. Currently christians dominate all branches of government. It would take a biased, dishonest analysis to conclude that jews as a group are in control.

i am confident that all the other “how many” stereotypes you have in mind are bullshit too, and have other cultural, historical, contextual explanations, just like every stereotype of every group.

You're right, the Israeli lobby does not equal Jews, but support for Israel is almost universal amongst Jews. It doesn't equal but it's strongly connected.

The staunchest antizionists tend to be Jews. Pretty sure there are more self-professed Christian zionists living in America than Jewish zionists too.

It behooves everyone to stop equating antizionism with antisemitism, because doing that actually breeds the latter.

> Pretty sure there are more self-professed Christian zionists living in America than Jewish zionists too.

All you're saying is that there are more Christians than Jews.

In the context of "you're conflating Jews with Israel" what actually matters if you want to compare with Christians is P(support Israel|Jew) Vs P(support Israel|Christian). Stop being disengenuous.

Your original statement was “there is a grain of truth that jews control the media/country because of the influence of the israel lobby.” (actually, your statement was even worse than that - that you believe that “many” stereotypes about jews in particular are true, unlike other groups).

The response is “the israel lobby is supported by christian evangelicals, a more numerous group than jews.” This is a clear refutation.

Im not sure what point youre trying to make other than that. Seems like you really want to blame the jews

Again, you're confused.

I'm saying that P(supports Israel | is Jewish) is large, and you're saying no, because P(is Christian evangelical | supports israel) is large (because there's so many more). In fact both might be true and are true, but your statement has no connection to the stereotype.

Im not confused at all. Youre saying that most jews support israel, therefore if the israel lobby has power, its proof that the stereotype that jews control the world has a grain of truth.

This is fallacious reasoning on a number of levels, not least because all evangelical christians, as a rule, also support israel due to their religious beliefs, and in fact hold increasing power in the US, yet you blame jews for this and not christian evangelicals.

Further, as I said earlier, christians by far outnumber jews in power positions in the US and worldwide.

You dont seem to care about the facts. You have an idea you want to push, which is that jewish stereotypes, which basically consist of them being evil and controlling the world, have a “grain of truth”. You think that throwing around probability symbols makes you smart. Youre not the smartest person in the room; youre just a lowly bigot. I can only hope that youre still young enough to break out of this path.

We agree on the facts. Christians outnumber etcetc. But the stereotype is that Jews control the media, not that Christians evangelicals do.

It's very simple: The fact most Jews support the Israeli lobby matches the stereotype. That fact that many (but many Christian evangelicals also support the Israeli lobby) is orthogonal to the stereotype. They might or might not, the stereotype doesn't say anything about it.

You probably imagine people will think you are very smart because you can put your racism into formulae.

You actually just come across as a shitty person.

> there are more self-professed Christian zionists living in America than Jewish zionists

this is a very important point I will remember as well. there are 10x as many evangelical christians as jews in the US, and they are often zionists. zionism is emphatically not just a jewish movement

There's a causation that you're missing. Zionism was originally an exclusively Jewish movement. Christian evangelicals were pulled in latter on as useful idiots. So yes, Zionism is not exclusively a Jewish movement nowadays, because the Jewish element is doing a good job with their plan of finding and creating allies.

Yes you have gone fully mask off here. The jewish element? Youre nothing but a nazi, if you arent one yet you will be one soon.

That's another aspect of Zionism, which is that it's really not about defending Jews, it's about defending Israel. Even Jews like myself, when they criticize Israel they're immediately labeled Nazis. Really crazy stuff.

you must be trolling, so Im going to stop now. you are not criticizing israel by claiming that jewish stereotypes are true

I didn't start by criticizing Israel, but my previous comment was criticism of Israel, when I said that yes, many Christian evangelicals are Zionists and there are more of them, as you like to say in order to muddle the water, but but I was saying that they weren't the originators of Zionism, Jews were. You were claiming that because there's more Christian evangelicals somehow that means something about Jews not being at fault? Complete nonsense.

okay but your comment about antisemitic stereotypes having a grain of truth is a nonsequitur. the stereotypes dont exist because of truth, they exist because of bigotry. whether or not they overlap with current circumstances is irrelevant. if you look at the reality of who holds power in society you will not find that its exclusively - or even mainly - jews unless you set out to selectively ignore all of the numerous christian leaders and power centers

You can say that about every stereotype on every group of people.

Congratulations: you have (re)discovered racism.

Like what? The stereotype that black people are more criminal has a grain of truth? I wouldn't say that at all. Can you give us an example?

I have never until now wondered that a negative stereotype of people has a grain of truth. If you believe that's commonplace, maybe you're the racist and are projecting?

If you know anything about the $group lobby in the USA, and you think that the stereotype that "they $stereotype" doesn't have a grain of truth, I'd like to hear why.

> Does anybody else think it's interesting how many of Jewish stereotypes have a grain of truth?

No, but I'm not an anti-Semite (sorry, "anti-Zionist" is the new term, right?) who gives any kind of a shit about this kind of thing

"antisemitism" is such a weird buzzword. Is it being against speakers of the Semitic lanuage group? Against being against the "Semitic race"?

Every quantifiable definition I've managed to find seems to effectively be a synonym for 'Middle Eastern', which is a little ironic.

Also interesting reading that 'Semite' apparently stems from a biblical classification of race. Are people really getting worked up against sons of mythical beings?

Trying to claim that "anti-Semitism" is a "weird buzzword" with no quantifiable definition is peak sophistry. The fact that Semite has a broader definition than the way it's used when we say "anti-Semite" is irrelevant; we all know – I know, you know, the dictionary knows – what is meant when someone says "anti-Semitism." Don't waste your time or mine by being a pedantic fuck trying to argue the etymology and applications of the word, this isn't high school debate class.

This kind statements are so ridiculous. Should American Koreans be lumped together with DPRK? Should American Chinese be grouped with CCP?

The foreign government is not related to your average citizens regardless of the race in principle.

No they shouldn't, because American Koreans are for the most part very anti-DPRK and American Chinese are very anti-CPP.

American Jews are very pro-Israel and donate heavily to politicians promoted by the Israeli lobby so it's less of a stretch to suggest that they might be aligned.

American evangelical christians are just as pro Israel if not moreso as a group. But somehow you don’t blame them

There are tons of Jewish people are against Bibi's government for a long time.

These kind of generalizations for average citizens are so dangerous. Today you are racists again Jewish group, tomorrow someone will do the same to other races.

My original point was about whether tne Israeli lobby has an undue influence in the media. I didn't say anything about the Israeli gov.

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