Comment by Aurornis | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Aurornis | Hacker News Reader

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Estrogen becomes a real problem for people experimenting with anabolic steroids or even taking some of the TRT regimens which go past replacement doses and into performance enhancing territory.

Testosterone is converted into estradiol by aromatase, so people who boost their testosterone up to high levels get more estradiol as a result.

As an aside: Aromatase is present in body fat, so higher body fat will produce more sites for testosterone to convert to estradiol. This is one reason why higher body fat is correlated with lower testosterone. It’s also one reason why the decline of testosterone levels are correlated with the rise of obesity and you shouldn’t trust anyone who rants about declining testosterone levels without acknowledging that major correlation.

Back on topic: The increased estradiol production from excess testosterone can go above the normal range in men, which can cause a wide range of mental and physical problems. It can even promote growth of breast tissue that when left unchecked needs to be surgically removed later. Surgeons who deal with gynecomastia are seeing booming business right now due to all of the men going to TRT clinics and getting blasted with crazy doses of testosterone.

There are medications which reduce aromatase activity but they are very hard to get right. It’s a common story for men to suffer from excess estradiol after manipulating their testosterone, so they assume they can fix it with an aromatase inhibitor. They take slightly too much (which is very easy due to the dosing and duration of action) and crash their estradiol levels too low. Between the sudden swing in levels and the low level they can find themselves feeling a different kind of terrible. Someone I know become suicidal after taking an aromatase inhibitor at the ‘normal’ recommending broscience dosage. It took weeks to clear due to the dynamics of how everything returns to equilibrium. Very scary time.

Estradiol is highly active in the brain including regulation of key functions like MAO (the enzyme inhibited by MAOI antidepressants). One of many reasons why out-of-range levels or sudden fluctuations can make people feel bad in various ways.

This is anecdata, but as someone who has used exogenous testosterone for the past 10 years, I feel significantly better with low T + high E2 than high T + low E2.

I've had E2 levels as high as the low end of female ovulatory range (see attached image at bottom) and felt fantastic, though personal response varies.

I stopped using aromatase inhibitors after the first few years due to having a worse sense of wellbeing compared to using none at all.

Now, I typically let my E2 sit around 60-90pg/mL (roughly x2-3 upper end of male reference range), which is where lands on 200mg/wk Testosterone, when doing TRT.

https://i.imgur.com/b3MjwDh.png

That image you linked shows a testosterone level 9X higher than the upper limit. I'm assuming that's unrelated to the values in your post because there is no way that 200mg/week produces those numbers.

Given that those levels are crazy high, you should probably mention that your experience is in the context of a lot of extreme hormone manipulation. Who knows what your body's baseline even is any more. I wouldn't expect your experiences to extend to normal people. I also really, really would not recommend that any men try to keep their E2 at 3X the upper end of the reference range.

My body's "baseline" is zero, my Leydig's cells no longer function to produce FSH/TSH, which is the expected outcome of a decade of AAS use.

Bloodwork from no Testosterone usage puts my T around 90ng/dL, or the upper end of female reference range, and my E2 at the bottom end of male range.

Hence, TRT as a medical necessity.

  > I'm assuming that's unrelated to the values in your post because there is no way that 200mg/week produces those numbers.

Yes, those bloods were on 1,500mg/wk.

  > I also really, really would not recommend that any men try to keep their E2 at 3X the upper end of the reference range.

Certainly not unless your T levels are proportionally x2-3 reference range. The T:E2 ratio is wildly important.

Same here. My cis-male body and brain really does strongly prefer high E2 levels. Just below “growing breast tissue” seems to be the sweet spot. Testosterone / DHT levels matter much less.

Raising E2 a bit basically cured lifelong suicidal ideation and major depressive disorder for me overnight. And it’s been working for 6 years now.

Libido is still fine - my girlfriends are satisfied unless i’m having a very stressful week.

Your libido sounds more than fine if you have multiple girlfriends.

Anything that increases Testosterone will increase E2 , you don't even need TRT!

For example I'm on HCG treatment due to Secondary Hypogonadism causing low Testosterone levels.

My urologist prescribed on a _moderate_ of HCG instead of TRT. I have to do regular blood checks every 3 months just to make sure all is in order.

The treatment was successful, as in my Testosterone and Free Testosterone returned to normal and all my side effects disappeared. My sperm count also doubled which was great.

However, even with a _moderate_ dose, it caused a spike in my Estradiol! Luckily, not enough that would require medication to counter that.

It's been 3+ years now. My recommendation to all men is to get checked, but don't self inject yourself with Testosterone without professional medical oversight.

For what it’s worth, hCG disproportionately affects E2 levels relative to how much it increases T levels due to increased aromatisation activity.

This is particularly visible in bodybuilders who add hcg on top of existing supraphysiological T levels. E2 shoots up, T levels stay pretty much flat.

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