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Comment by d4mi3n | Hacker News Reader

Unless one choses to bargain. Perhaps collectively.

[flagged]

Quoting a tweet:

“People on twitter will really be like ‘you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart’ and then not firebomb a Walmart”

Revolutions don't start with violence. People talk about it first.

I don't understand why people make these hyperbolic jokes about guillotines. Violence is counterproductive; and not practical anyway. Joking about it just makes you feel great without actually doing anything.

There is a simple alternative. Vote; and educate your family and friends.

If you don't know what is on the ballot in the midterms, you are part of the problem. If you aren't starting a family conversation about how corporations are squeezing us, you are part of the problem.

Everyone talks about MLK, but no one points out that people were willing to listen because Malcom X was a looming threat if MLK failed. Yes vote, but the threat of violence is what makes voting a delighted option. That's why protests exist. They are reminders that peace is a choice.

Violent revolution has merit when peaceful means break down. The rise of the guillotine jokes are the first time that people are losing faith in the peaceful option. We should hope that our leaders don't make most of use disillusioned with the idea of a peaceful transfer of power.

For anyone thinking about going that way, I highly recommend listening to the Revolutions podcast series starting here: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1wVvwnrBP2cVQrFf06RoO9

It'll probably disabuse you of the idea that its a good way to get things done.

It is one of the most eye opening pieces of media. Especially the French and Russian Revolutions are covered in such great detail, while staying interesting. I also loved the appendix to the show where Mike talked about "patterns" in a revolution. Learned a lot about the relationship between the government and its people.

Yeah, for me, Revolutions and The History of Rome are two of the best examples of "this is why knowing history is useful", and that history isn't actually boring - it's basically a highlight reel of some of the highest human dramas. Mike Duncan put out some incredible work.

It's never been a good way to get things done, but when you block off every other venue for change people will be much more willing to take a chance on a high risk option. Violent revolutions aren't usually the first thing people try.

Democracies that arise by nonviolent revolution, do so in part due to the threat of what comes next if the nonviolent revolution is crushed. Because if you make sure placards and petitions don't work, it eventually won't be placards and petitions anymore.

'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable', and all that.

Yeah, I get that it's a useful threat to back up the nonviolent options. I just don't think Americans have tried the nonviolent options wrt economics with any amount of real effort yet, and it's worrying/annoying to see people jumping to the nuclear option as soon as they personally hit a rough patch or start getting scared of one.

When I've gone to local government meetings, I've generally been one of only a few without gray hair. The vast majority of working-age people seemingly can't be bothered to learn the basics about who's running in a non-presidential election, let alone go argue for the boring but extremely impactful things that would actually help people out.

People need to put down the phones and put in some actual effort on fixing things before even jokingly advocating for something that would almost certainly be a mass casualty event. It's shameful.

I don't disagree. Local politics and unionizing are much more impactful than people realize.

Everyone remembers Malcolm X, but does anyone remember the names of the thousands of civilians who protested the Iranian regime and got summarily executed?

Resistance doesn't work very well against highly militarized autocratic regimes.

France had revolution and guillotines, but the UK had a strong police force and good suppression.

The UK didn't just repress its citizens, it ultimately caved to them. The voting reforms of the 19th century gave people essentially everything they wanted, at the time, and as a consequence when the rest of europe was going thru 1848 Britain was chilling. But just a few years beforehand there was legitimate fear that the government would be toppled by rioters! You can't judge centuries of history just by looking at the end result.

> Violent revolution has merit when peaceful means break down.

Robespierre first entered the chat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

Then Napoleon followed.

Make of it what you will.

[EDIT: for the downvoters - the folks who got guillotined in France were definitely bad, but the Terror was very real and very awful. It tends to be a trend with the noble overthrowers that after the initial wins they then get excited to go lop the heads off anyone else that might have ever bothered them. Be careful what you wish for.]

Violence is not always counterproductive

So you are saying that I shouldn't start my artisanal guillotine business?

Believe me, I know what's on the ballot for the midterm in the state but it's not going to stop me from making dark snarky jokes.

Mass produced and pre-staged. Think zipcar for guillotines pre positioned in finance districts and rich neighborhoods.

That would make one hell of an art project.

I don't believe that activism actually generally works, and I am skeptical that voting works either.

Don't get me wrong. I do vote, and I believe that voting and activism can work, and even still does for a variety of things. But as for fighting against forces of corruption and tyranny, I believe activism is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. Any grassroots efforts are in a horribly asymmetric battle against well-funded adversaries that will come back every year everywhere without fail to get their opening. And any hope we had of limiting corporate interests in politics has been decimated in the U.S. basically since Citizen's United — not that I really believe there wouldn't have been some other workaround had that not happened.

So yes, I believe grassroots activism largely doesn't work. The fact that the battle is so asymmetrical makes it even more asymmetrical by making people apathetic about and fatigued over activism, making it even less effective.

But people often turn their heads when there's violence.

Nobody wants violence, just like nobody wants to hit rock bottom. I believe truly that political violence is a very dark place that will be no fun for anyone involved that I personally do not want to be a part of in any way. But, it just is the case that things will get worse before they get ~~much worse~~ better.

I see it as a question of if and not when until structural changes occur that durably improve upon the asymmetry of political activism. And in that case, it's not a matter of whether or not, it's a matter of getting it the hell over with.

I don't know how the fuck these stupid Flock "safety" cameras got here, but I have a pretty good guess how they'll disappear.

They grew out of red light cameras, which everyone saw as a naked cash grab- especially once towns were caught tweaking the yellow light timings.

Cops love them, and look longingly at the UK panopticon and how easy it is to solve crimes.

If our panopticon actually meant crimes got solved, I’d be less pissed off by it.

Instead we’re being spied on but seemingly police can’t solve any of the crime affecting most people’s day to day lives.

Those flock cameras arrived in many places in the US bc people did not show up to public city council meetings to oppose them, aka “activism”.

In many cities they just bring it up again and again until it passes. They only need to win once, we need to win every time. That's the problem.

This is anticipatory obedience and it's actively harmful.

You are also wrong. Contracts, ordinances, and everything related to governance get rolled back or changed all the time. Especially at the local level.

If you have lost the initial battle you can do the same thing as them: you keep attacking their presence and you only need to win once to undo it.

Are representatives that were elected deaf? Or dumb?

What is voting for then?

Locally over here our city councils are overran with people who are anti Flock. Flock's strategy is to sneak their way in as if it is an "emergency". They've got a whole playbook.

Normal activists don't stand a chance against well-funded adversaries.

This is just anticipatory obedience. Deciding that you've already lost before even trying is actively harmful, especially when paired with a lack of any other action.

If you don't believe in this system then start setting things on fire[0] I guess. Otherwise shut up, people are actually trying to fight it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Kimberly-Clark_distributi...

Like I said, I still participate. I just have absolutely zero hope this will get solved peacefully.

Feel free to spread naivity, but do not tell me to shut up, that is an endeavor less useful than any activism.

> I don't know how the fuck these stupid Flock "safety" cameras got here, but I have a pretty good guess how they'll disappear.

Gee golly, I have no clue how the pole ended up being cut and the solar and cameras ended up smashed.

Must'a been an "accident".

How is it hyperbolic when it’s human history?

Violence has been very productive for the ruling class. Voting sounds nice but evidence abounds about the mendacity of politicians and their willingness to subvert or overrule voters' preferences if sufficient money or status is to be had. You can say 'well vote those people out if they ignore the voters' but once a new reality has set in the politicians often gainan incumbency advantageor have lined up a cushy post-retirement gig.

I mean, it’s not something anonymous edgy twitter accounts have come up with. There is ample historic precedence on the trend.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." - Jefferson

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