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Comment by mark242 | Hacker News Reader

If "we will opt everyone in because otherwise we won't get enough data because we know users won't opt in" is your business model, maybe it's time for a rethink.

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this is the business model of all companies training AI, if they had to get permission we wouldn't have frontier LLMs at all

So it's OK to do stuff without permission as long as we get something that makes a lot of people a lot of money?

It's not OK, but it's a fact.

*"that makes a select few rich people a lot more money?"

has it not always been this way?

Two things can be true. A shitty thing can prevail for a long time and still be shitty.

I think it's prevailed for all of human history in this case, so while shitty it appears to be a feature

Agreed but "it's always been shitty" isn't a reason to do nothing about it.

For much of human history slavery was fine too, but thankfully that's been dealt with in many nations. I know some folks argue that capitalism is just the next iteration of slavery but that's different.

not sure why you think stating facts implies nothing should be done about it

slavery is still fine in the US as long as you're incarcerated, and the US still does business with countries that regularly use the old fashioned kind — hell, some people still want to bring chattel slavery back here and still proudly display the confederate flag

these are just very slow things to change... in the timespan of centuries if you're lucky, but in the case of wealth bringing privilege we haven't cracked the issue for thousands of years

> if they had to get permission we wouldn't have frontier LLMs at all

Don't threaten me with a good time.

That would be a good thing TBH.

It's frustrating as we literally just moved to it. Back to Mixpanel?

I'd recommend at least doing a short spike to see if you can build your own in some way. We did that for the purpose of experimentation and now we've built our own metrics platform that we completely own.

Defaults matter.

Opt-in vs opt-out organ donorship has a large impact.

Most people on any web app won’t stray from the defaults.

I sincerely hope this never comes to pass, but you or your loved ones may someday find themselves in the position of wishing more people were opted in for organ donation.

The same cannot be said for some random corporation training AI models off your data to make a buck or two.

I think it might be better to get rid of the organ *donation* system entirely.

Organ transplant surgery costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, yet donors get zilch, which is completely unfair when everyone else in the value chain gets paid.

If instead it was "allow my organs to be sold for my estate" I think the supply of organs would greatly increase, which would be win/win.

there are a number of problems with people selling their organs for profit, it's a perverse incentive — the people in the chain who otherwise get paid don't get paid for the organs, they get paid for the labor of doing their jobs

Which we probably need to consider changing now that some truly bizarre and evil shit is being done on donor organs:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48212992

Off topic but I'm curious what's evil about that article. Bizarre, sure, but evil? They took a brain (an organ) from a dead person who had previously given consent to use their organs for that purpose.

I think most people, and definitely myself, when they sign up to be an organ donor, they think of the liver, kidney, and heart. Things that will help other people.

Not the brain, the center of conscience, being kept in some sort of horror-movie half-alive state. I do not think we understand consciousness enough to rule out what those brains are experiencing.

That's fair. Personally I wouldn't mind, but when you put it that way it makes sense people would be wary. Kind of reminds me of the series Pantheon, which is amazing but also kinda disturbing for similar reasons.

> half-alive state

The brain can't be "half-alive" after you've died.

> I do not think we understand consciousness enough to rule out what those brains are experiencing.

The parent edited their comment, wasn’t there when I replied. But if you believe your organs don’t die when you die, then don’t donate your organs?

> if you believe your organs don’t die when you die, then don’t donate your organs?

Because "I" don't know what "I" am.

Am I a brain? Am I a soul? Am I the universe?

I have no idea. Science currently has no idea. Religion is unprovable.

I want to donate my organs. If my death can bring life to others, it would be a truly amazing deed I could do.

On the other hand, if I am just a brain, I do not want to be locked into some sort of drugged, half-conscious state where I can't scream.

Um... I, 220% disagree with that statement. I did edit to fix a spelling mistake, I did not add/remove content...

I wish HN showed the edit history >:(

Organ donation saves lives at no cost to you (because at this point you're dead).

It's unclear if my private data being used for training has a cost to me, but I'm giving posthog money already. They shouldn't double dip.

Again, this is because it's uninformed.

Consent matters.

yea except one is a "dark pattern" to exploit customers for corporate profit while the other is to benefit society.

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