Comment by drinian | Hacker News Reader

Comment by drinian | Hacker News Reader

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You know, I went to a top-tier private school in the US, followed by a top-tier private university, and I never understood the obsession with getting As in everything. I certainly wasn't, especially once at university, but I didn't feel like less of a person.Even in the US, there is a stereotype that Asian parents drive their kids in a similar manner, although I have never heard of them treating them like property like this father does. Then there's the cram schools in Korea and Japan. I have to wonder why that, culturally, seems to be linked to Asians?

Culturally, though, this is the most disturbing part of the article: One day I brought in a book, The Collected Stories of Guy Maupassant, and it was confiscated. The head teacher said this book was useless in improving my grades and that these kinds of books only lead students into decadence and depravation. The next day after class I was flipping through a book of short essays and it too was confiscated. The head teacher would not even let me write small articles on my own because she believes that it is a waste of time to write anything unless it is required by the literature teacher.

One message I was always sent during my education was that the point of education was to become a whole person, not just to make money; literacy and humanism were an integral part of that. (I think a couple of Asian kids that I went to school with ended up in the humanities against their parents' wishes because of this). That attitude seems to be quite common among hackers as well. The shells of people that the Chinese system will turn out, if this is any indication, scare me.

< I have to wonder why that, culturally, seems to be linked to Asians?

I can't speak for other Asian countries, but I know China. From what you wrote, your experience and the experience of Zhang Rui (the high school student) couldn't be more different. I've recently had the wonderful and depressing experience of teaching in rural Chinese high schools, and it was an eye-opening experience. The pressure and stress on those kids is simply astounding.

Unfortunately for Zhang Rui, there is probably no more important single event in his life than taking the University Entrance Examination (高考, or GaoKao). There are really only two life paths before him, depending on his score.

If Zhang Rui gets a decently high score, then he can attend a large university in a city like Beijing or Shanghai. He will receive an urban residence permit, and a small stipend that he can use to live as a student. He'll receive a degree without much difficulty, and he should be able to get a good job. He can become a professional, he can go into government, he can become a writer, he's got a lot of options.

If Zhang Rui gets a low score, then he has few or no options. He lives in a remarkably poor region, even by Chinese standards, and his father is probably a peasant farmer (or something close). He's probably also got a rural registration, so he'll never be legally allowed to leave his village. He can either follow in his father's impoverished footsteps or become an undocumented migrant worker, sweating in a factory or hand-mixing concrete on a construction site.

Those are the choices. Zhang Rui might be able to skip university and still lead a full and interesting life, but the odds are hugely against it. He'll have to fight the system until the day he dies.

This is the harsh reality that Zhang Rui is facing, and it helps to put everything into context. His father and teachers know all these things, and so it's likely they've boiled it down to a cold binary decision: either little Zhang gets into university and brings the family out of poverty, or he's another worthless peasant stuck in Anhui. The only thing that matters is the score on the GaoKao. It's horrible, but not uncommon.

I sincerely hope that Zhang Rui overcomes the system without losing his soul (or his life). He sounds creative, strong, and insightful. China could use more voices like his.

Are some people in China really not legally allowed to leave their villages?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registra...

They can leave but can't legally hold a job without the right work permit.

Thanks for the link, rms. It's a good summary of the situation.

For the Americans here, you can get a quick "gut" feeling for the hukou system by thinking about the illegal Mexican immigrants in the U.S. Sure, they can go to any city and find low-wage blue collar work. The odds are also pretty good that they won't be deported. However, they're always going to be stuck at the bottom of the heap.

The situation is practically identical for people here in China with an "agricultural" residence permit. They flock to the cities by the tens of millions to (illegally) work in factories and do construction work. I see them every day. It's better pay than plowing fields, but they'll forever be working dirty, dangerous, low-paying jobs. If they do manage to climb up somehow, they'll live in constant fear of being discovered.

Going to a university gives you an urban registration, which is arguably even more important than the degree.

Thanks for the eye-opening insight!

> I have to wonder why that, culturally, seems to be linked to Asians?

This is a complex issue, but the shallow explanation is the test taking culture. There have been reports of widespread (and sophisticated) cheating in the national Korean university entrance exams over howevermany past years that I can recall. I was told that this is because Koreans basically get one shot at the exam. It practically makes or breaks your life. So everything you do in life, up until that point, is in preparation for the fight.

I must stress again though, that this is a shallow look at the problem.

"I was told that this is because Koreans basically get one shot at the exam. It practically makes or breaks your life."

People talk about the superior nature of the American higher education system, which might seem strange if you are used to hearing about how much it sucks, but of course those criticisms are talking about two different things. The American system is superior because you can get a second chance in almost anything. You'll have to pay, but you can get a second chance. If you don't like your major, you can change at any time, carrying over what you can.

This sounds so stupidly obvious if you grew up in the US that you may not realize that even in otherwise very enlightened societies like Europe, this is not how it works. In the UK, you declare your major in high school and from what I've heard talking to people who went there, it is possible to change, but very, very hard.

Now, match that against the number of people who change majors in the US... almost everybody does within their first year! Even if you count "real major" -> "real major", i.e., one real engineering to another real engineering and not something like "real engineering" -> "English degree", you're looking at a lot of motion.

It's really strange to me how much this has stuck in those places when, in general, it would be really easy to pick up that aspect of the American system. I suppose it should be pointed out that there are still some clear advantages to American culture, for as much as people love to dump on it.

It's a good point, but you actually do a second shot at the Korean exam. It actually makes it harder, because you are competing against people that finished high school and didn't get the score they wanted on the exam, so have spent the entire last year studying for the exam.

To me, this points out a fatal flaw in the Korean test, it's not hard enough. It's hard enough from a comprehensiveness standpoint, but it's not from a level of knowledge standpoint. Put simply, an effective test should show what level you are at in a topic. A test should advance to higher levels of thinking, to places where knowledge is not merely facts. It should go beyond the furthest course offered to determine who is truly advanced, rather than see who learned the standard class the most completely.

Another flaw in the Korean system is that the actual university experience is lessened, because you have already proven yourself getting in and simply graduating is sufficient.

You're generalising from one data point.

Even within the UK, Scotland has a 4 year degree and England a 3 year. Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything.

The only other part of Europe that I know about Germany is vastly more lenient with people staying students seemingly forever. One guy I talked to claimed that they couldn't afford to finish as the loss in student discounts would be too abrupt. Kind of like people on unemployment who would have to take a pay cut to start working.

And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)

"You're generalising from one data point."

No, I'm not. I'm sharing a general observation with wide validity associatively triggered by one person's post. It's a conversational thing.

"Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything."

Do you mean this as some sort of evidence against my point? (Honest question, I'm not sure.) It's evidence for it.

"And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)"

Culture. Even if there are no technical barriers, if the culture forbids it, or makes the thought unthinkable somehow, it causes friction.

There's also a tradition of respect for parents, and parents like good grades. Indeed, at younger ages, grades are reports to parents.

There are few societies that don't teach respect for parents in some form. The difference seems to be that there are many fewer obligations on the parents in the Confucian model; in the extreme version as related in the article, children are basically servants of the parents' whims.

"I have to wonder why that, culturally, seems to be linked to Asians?"

It is not Asians - it is most cultures where the parents are fairly poor and the children have a chance to succeed in life.

A second generation rich (well off) person will not work as hard as someone whose father is poor.

I doubt that the stressing and pressure that this guy is going trough is good - but the hard work that a lot of Chinese school children do is a good thing.

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