Which is totally fine and expected for any decent programmer. Casting pointers is clearly here be dragons territory.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect any load through `int*` to just load 4 bytes from memory, done and done. They get surprised that it is far from the whole story, and the result is UB.
Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead. But no.
I'd clarify this with "They understand that all values are just bytes".
> Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead.
It's partly the standards fault here - rather than saying "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we shall leave it as implementation-defined", they say "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we will leave it as undefined".
A clear majority of the UB problems with C could be fixed if the standards committee slowly moved all UB into IB. It's not that there isn't any progress (Signed twos-complement is coming, after all), it's that there is (I believe) much pushback from compiler authors (who dominate the standards) who don't want to make UB into IB.
There is no such thing as getting rid of "all UB."
What behavior is the implementation supposed to prescribe for a write to an unpredictable garbage address you read from the network? It could overwrite your code. It could overwrite any value anywhere. It could overlap with anything. Prescribing defined behavior for absolutely everything would require defining a precise, unoptimizable 1-to-1 mapping to assembly code and disallowing any multithreading.
"The compiler is not allowed to elide a write to a garbage address".
Wasn't that easy?
Hence, "undefined behavior," of the entire program, not just that particular write.
"Going past the end of the array results in addressing arbitrary values" I can live with. "Going past the end of an array results in anything happening" is a hard sell.
Once you are addressing arbitrary values you are firmly in the realm of "anything happening" in practice, but you've now given up optimization opportunities. As has been repeatedly demonstrated over the years, once memory safety breaks it is practically impossible to make any guarantees about program behavior.
Your compiler emitting a load operation and it failing isn't "anything". The failure being handled by code that the compiler authors can't predict doesn't make it "anything".
And if you lose optimization opportunities because of this it's because your optimization is broken. By the way, if you lose optimization opportunities because of this, that means both codes are meaningfully different and you knew it all the time.
https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/10/14/a-single-byte-write-o...
And if you get code execution, then you by definition have "anything".
Documenting that the instructions to access will always be eliminated makes it easier to predict what will happen.
For example, a dynamically linked library that takes in a pointer, and then writes to the 10 ints after it—whether or not this behavior is defined is determined after that library is compiled, right?
But just because those forms are common, doesn't mean the behavior is actually defined.
Ex - I might be using a vendor specific compiler for custom embedded devices where dynamic linking isn't available at all, and which might have complicated storage mechanisms that look nothing like standard memory pages.
You're already deep into the bowels of implementation specific behavior by the time we talk about dynamic linking. The C standard doesn't have anything to say about it at all.
My read on the above conversation is basically a discussion about asking/requiring vendors to properly document their implementation, as opposed to leaving it undocumented (the default - given my experience with hardware manufacturers...).
I don't think the real takeaway is that "instructions should be eliminated in case [blah blah blah]" it's that "Something is going to happen, please tell me what that is on your system, instead of leaving it as UB" (Basically - make UB in the standard implementation defined behavior from the vendor).
My read is that this won't happen because it's genuinely incredibly difficult to do, and this isn't a space overflowing with capital to allocate to the problem. But I do think there's merit to the idea of pushing vendors to provide coverage in this space AT SOME POINT.
"Can't always be detected" is jut a different way of saying "Can sometimes be detected".
Upon detection, I'd rather that the compiler still emit the instructions, not elide the code altogether.
That does not seem like an improvement if your goal is predictable, consistent behavior.
> That does not seem like an improvement if your goal is predictable, consistent behavior.
Getting unpredictable outcomes only on some items is better than getting unpredictable outcomes on every item. This is what I meant when I said moving UB to IB might not fix everything, but it is certainly a solid start!
For the former, I kinda get it. It may need to be there for cases like with segmented address space where p+10 could actually be a value less than p, for the eventually generated assembly. Maybe it should be fine to create such a pointer, but have it be "indeterminate value" or whatever, if you try to compare that pointer to anything? I don't know enough about compiler internals to say one way or the other.
Dereferencing, though, can only be UB. There may not be a "value" behind that address. There may be a motor that's been I/O mapped, or a self destruct button.
Right now, if a dereference results in UB, the compiler may omit it entirely.
I know what you mean, but I'm just not sure you're describing something that fits what C "is". We program C to the abstract machine specified in the standard (5.1.2), and the compiler's job is to translate that into something with identical behavior on particular hardware. Piercing the layers down to actual hardware or assembly isn't really done.
Even "volatile" just says (basically) "touching this object has side effects". It implies no double-loading, speculative store, etc, but doesn't say "don't emit assembly instructions to load this unless the program logic path takes the route where the C program does load it".
The standard is not using ancient language when it refers to "objects with static storage duration" instead of "heap" or ".data segment". It is the true class of objects in the abstract machine.
I'd agree to a point. I still think it's unreasonable for compiler writers to get all lawyery about precise terminology. After all "implementation defined" could still be subject to the same lawyeriness (we implemented it, ergo we define it).
To me this is an issue of culture. We need to push back against the view that UB means anything can happen, therefore the compiler can do anything.
That said, I think there are many cases where compilers could make a better effort to link UB they're optimizing against to UB that appears in the code as originally authored and emit a diagnostic or even error out. But at least we've got ubsan and friends so it seems like things are within reason if not optimal.
Well I think there is a tension here. C is the language for microcontrollers and the language for high performance.
In ye olden days both groups interests were aligned because speed in C was about working with the machine. Now the UB has been highjacked for speed, that microcontroller that I'm working on, where I know and int will overflow and rely on that is UB so may be optimised out, so I then have to think about what the compiler may do.
I wouldn't say C is the wrong language. I would say there are wrong compilers though.
I am skeptical that NULL-pointer checks being removed contribute anything more than a rounding error in performance gains in any non-trivial program.
A standard way to eliminate those is to invoke undefined behavior if some condition is not met;
if (a == NULL) {
__builtin_unreachable();
}
Being able to assume certain things don't happen is powerful when you're writing optimisations, not doing that would have a real performance cost
A few of those are significant performance gains, the majority are not.
Emitting the instruction for a NULL pointer dereference is effectively no more costly than not emitting that instruction.
It's the code removal that's killing me.
Compilers optimise in multiple passes and removing things earlier can expose optimisation opportunities later that can affect other parts of the code too
Then it should warn "unreachable code".
> and then significantly improve the surrounding function because of that?
It's not simply the removal that is the problem, it's that the code is silently removed.
Direct link to part 3 (but read the others first for context if you can): https://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should...
You don’t want warnings for every piece of code in a library you’re not using or sanity check you added that isn’t supposed to be hit
And you can’t warn when you’re optimising based on undefined behaviour because you can’t know when it will happen, that is equivalent to the halting problem
If you warned whenever undefined behaviour could be happening then e.g. every single pointer deference would say “warning: compiling assuming pointer is not null or unaligned”
I have read the entire series. Both in the past and more recently.
> If you warned whenever undefined behaviour could be happening then e.g. every single pointer deference would say “warning: compiling assuming pointer is not null or unaligned”
I am not proposing that at all, I am proposing (which the series you link to does not preclude) that eliding code on the basis of UB can be determined by the compiler. If the compiler can determine that some code block needs to be elided, then the reason for that elision has already been determined, in which case it can issue a warning when "reason" == "pointer already used" when eliding the null check.
If you include a library function with a null check that gets inlined you probably don’t want a bunch of warnings there for code you don’t even control
It's undefined so it doesn't have to be zeroed therefore increasing efficiency.
But it's also UB so if you do know that memory contains something, you can't take advantage of that because it's UB. Having it UB is fine. It's the compilers assuming UB can't happen and optimising it away.
Not if those 4 bytes span a cacheline boundary, that will most likely result in 1/2 throughput compared to loading values inside a single cacheline. And if it causes cache-misses it takes up twice the L2 or L3 bandwidth.
Even worse, if the int spans two pages, it will need two TLB lookups. If it's a hot variable and the only thing you use from those pages, it even uses up an additional TLB entry, that could otherwise be used for better perf elsewhere, etc.
And if you're on embedded (and many C programs are), Cortex-M CPUs either can't handle unaligned accesses (M0, M0+) or take 2-3 times as long (split the load into 2x2 byte or 1x2 + 2x1 byte)
And crucially until DR#260 https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_260.htm this was a reasonable guess as to what the pointers are. Probably not a wise guess because it's not how your C compiler worked even then, but a reasonable guess if you didn't think too hard about this.
One way I like to think about this is that all C's types are just the machine integers wearing crap Halloween costumes. Groucho glasses for bool, maybe a Lincoln hat for char, float and double can be bright orange make-up and a long tie. But the pointers are different, because unlike the other types those have provenance.
5 == 5, 'Z' == 'Z', true == true, 1.5f == 1.5f, but whether two pointers are equivalent does not depend solely on their bit pattern in C.
Just creating the pointer, though, should not be UB, even though it apparently is. It should not even be IB.
PCs yes, but there are many other things C is compiled to for which this is not true.