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Comment by Perenti | Hacker News Reader

I've been told that American's have a very low rate of passport issuance. I don't know if that's true, but the figure quoted was only 10% of adults hold passports. Is this a really effective way to get people to pay for their kids, or just the appearance of doing something to quiet the voters?

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It's possible this might have a significant (not small, not necessarily large) impact on the smaller subset of delinquent parents that might currently have a larger double digit percentage (30% say) skipping to Canada, Mexico, or elsewhere to avoid being chased down.

Or not.

The main point here is that it's not the entire population of regular US citizens that should be looked at here, more the specific behaviour of the subset in question.

The constitution (article 11) of Mexico provides an explicit right of every person to enter Mexico without a passport (that doesn't mean every person in general -- you can be barred -- but not because you don't have a passport). You can witness this at land border crossings -- I routinely watch them let in foreigners without them (they're not following whatever uncited nonsense you read at the consulate wrongly claiming a passport is 'required' without citing any law). It is subject to immigration enforcement, but they're legally barred from requiring a passport. It won't do dick to stop delinquent people from leaving and anywhere that actually thoroughly checks passports also is a member of international child support enforcement treaties.

Interesting, never knew that.

As an aside I've been in and out of Mexico a bunch of times (formerly entered, 5 or 6 times; crossed the border, literally a hundred+ times) - but as an Australian geophysical exploration surveyor on the job it's always been via other people dealing with all the paperwork.

You never knew that because most of it is false. The constitutional point they mentioned has a big exception for the needs of administration, and Mexico’s immigration law uses that to require passports from all foreign nationals entering Mexico. This has been upheld by Mexico’s Supreme Court.

Good to know.

I did my best to avoid all customs issues as I worked with a crew in and out of a lot countries for mapping and exploration and a lot of special exceptional visa work for the professional lawyer and government minister whisperer class.

Air geophysical survey grids 80m above ground level with 200m line spacing can have aircraft running lines backwards and forwards over a border for a couple of days.

The constitutional challenge they speak of was a constitutional challenge by indigenous persons challenging internal immigration checkpoints. And the indigenous won, actually loosening immigration checks, so it's baffling they cited that. The ABA international even did a review of that case and the only relevant portions they mentioned were the loosening of internal immigration checkpoints.

>and Mexico’s immigration law uses that to require passports from all foreign nationals entering Mexico.

LMAO, this person must have never entered Mexico by land. You literally walk right in, 9 of 10 times. The last time I went even the X-ray machine guy was asleep. They're clearly following the constitution and not whatever hallucinated conclusion there was about the challenge by indigenous that loosened restrictions.

One time I showed my passport card, and they thought it was a driver license, lmao. Not that they gave a shit either way.

In 1990 it was only 5% of Americans and now it's 50%. In the UK it's 85% but a better comparison is probably France who are in the Schengen Area so only 60% have a passport.

If I lived in France I doubt I would travel outside of the Schengen Area.

About half of Americans traveling to/from Mexico by land at a small crossing i noticed didn't even have them (recently). Turns out Mexico doesn't legally require a passport for entry and the US has to take back citizens who appear without one. This won't do shit to stop escaping deadbeats, just another scheme to punish parents at a threshold so low it could be a single misreported tech worker payment while doing fuck all for the kids.

And people wonder why no one is having kids. It is punishment after punishment by a society who pretends to care about kids but does fuck all to help, only to rub it in your face and punish you when you are down.

> Turns out Mexico doesn't legally require a passport for entry

This isn't true. See e.g. https://consulmex.sre.gob.mx/washington/index.php/ligavisos/... :

> "All foreigners, regardless of their nationality, are required to present a valid and not expired passport or travel document when entering Mexico (traveling by air, land or sea)."

What you may have observed is Mexican border control at a small crossing may not enforce that requirement.

  Article 11 [Mexican Constitution]

  Every person has the right to enter and leave the country, to travel through its territory and to move house without the necessity of a letter of safe passage, passport, safe-conduct or any other similar requirement. In the event of criminal or civil liability, the exercise of this right shall be subject to the judicial authority. Relating to limitations imposed by the laws on immigration and public health, or in respect to undesirable aliens residing in the country, the exercise of this right shall be subject to the administrative authority.

Every person has the right to enter the country without a passport. There are ways for the authorities to get around it and fuck with people found in the interior without it (says subject to administrative authority for immigration, but they're explicitly constitutionally barred from requiring anything like a passport) , but ultimately it's unconstitutional to make a law requiring it. This trumps the aspirational hearsay provided by the consulate and explains why none of the consulate advice is able to cite where this supposed "requirement" comes from. The consulate either was mistaken or wrote that because it will really suck to leave the country without it and they don't want to deal with the fallout.

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Mexico_2015#s...

> none of the consulate advice is able to cite where this supposed "requirement" comes from.

It comes from Mexico's immigration law, Ley de Migración: https://www.diputados.gob.mx/LeyesBiblio/pdf/LMigra.pdf

Here are a couple of relevant sections, from pages 16 and 15 of the above document, respectively:

For foreigners to Mexico:

    Article 37. To enter the country, foreigners must:
    I. Present the following documents at the immigration inspection checkpoint before the Institute:
    a) A passport or identity and travel document that is valid in accordance with applicable international law; and
    b) When so required, a validly issued and current visa, pursuant to Article 40 of this Law; or
    c) A residence card or authorization for the immigration status of regional visitor, border worker visitor, or visitor for humanitarian reasons.

For Mexicans:

    Article 36. Mexicans may not be deprived of the right to enter national territory. To this end, they must prove their nationality, in addition to complying with the other requirements established in this Law, its Regulations, and other applicable legal provisions.
    Mexicans shall prove their nationality using one of the following documents:

    I. Passport;
    II. Citizen Identity Card, Personal Identity Card, or its equivalent;
    III. Certified copy of a Birth Certificate;
    IV. Consular Registration Card;
    V. Letter of Naturalization; or
    VI. Certificate of Mexican Nationality.

I'm not interested in debating whether this *law* is compatible with Mexico's constitution. That has in fact been litigated, and Mexico's Supreme Court has "recognized the constitutionality of the immigration authority's power to request documents from foreign nationals to verify their legal entry, stay, and departure from the country." (https://tirant.com/mx/actualidad-juridica/noticia-inconstitu...).

The point is, that's what the prevailing law says, and that's what's generally practiced at borders, consulates, and embassies.

> The consulate either was mistaken or wrote that because it will really suck to leave the country without it and they don't want to deal with the fallout.

Ah yes, I'm sure the entire legal apparatus of the country of Mexico is just winging it, whereas you, noble HN commenter, have sussed out the true facts. Or perhaps you just heard and believed a story from some rando at a border crossing.

There’s about 180m us passports, so about half the country has one, about the same percentage as France.

How many of those are second passports for the benefit of people who wish to visit Israel without the added friction that Israeli stamps in their primary passport would bring?

Also, EU citizens do not require a passport to travel within the EU; by law, their national ID card suffices, thus making passports unnecessary for much of their travel.

Most Americans don’t generally visit Israel.

It’s generally very difficult to get a second passport.

As a tourist, I’ve noticed the countries most obsessed with Israel usually aren’t winning any “pleasant place to visit” awards.

Israel doesn't stamp your passport if you ask.

They haven’t stamped passports at TLV for about a decade. My last Israel in my “dirty” passport was at Erez coming out of Gaza.

Very few people have two passports nowadays.

In practice many still own passports, as they are considered as better proofs of identity when you travel.

In addition, while there's a significant number of deadbeat dads, there's also a significant number in debtor's prison for not paying sufficient child support because they can't they don't have any money. It's a practice from medieval Europe that's been banned there but is still used in the US.

Presumably it would be very effective for some demographics and not so effective for others. 10% is still a very large group of people. People who would be affected are also probably people who can afford international travel, so the affected are probably disporportionally the group who are failing to pay despite having a bunch of spare income.

As an american it is true that most people don’t have passports - the act of flying internationally is either out of reach economically or culturally. This does give mostly out of touch opression where the margins are the targets and the white dudes will likely get a pass, so the latter.

As an American, it is not true that most people don't have passports.

There are currently 180 million and change active issued passport to US citizens.

What does it mean "out of reach culturally"? Genuine question, I'm very curious about it.

I've met a lot of people in the US who assume they cannot afford to fly anywhere, much less to another country, without having ever priced any part of it, they simply Knew from cultural osmosis they were not The Kind Of People Who Could Do That.

I am assuming that's what they meant.

You’re strawmanning against a point that I called out explicitly as a distinct variable that should be considered on its own totality of circumstance.

@gcr had the closest contact to the point I was alluding to. The world has been painted as this big scary place where there’s only violence and that can be identified from the type and behavior of people being sent here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_pet-eating_hoax)

I’m guessing that a lot of Americans are either fearful of or indifferent to the rest of the world. My broad estimate is that maybe half of us have been outside the country.

The purpose of this isn't to twist people's arms to pay for their kids.

It's to punish poor, especially nonwhite, people and make it hard for them to escape the oppression of the Trump regime.

You're saying that Trump and company are trying to get the people of color who don't pay their child support to not leave the country. I'm not sure what the problem is. Can you explain it further?

I'm also curious why you think it is only targeting people of color and not people of white

If they leave the country voluntarily, then Trump & co can't put them in concentration camps.

And it's targeting poor people, who are disproportionately nonwhite.

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