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Comment by kingsleyopara | Hacker News Reader

I really want to love this thing but at least in the UK, matching specs it comes out as more expensive than the MBP - even worse when you factor in potential discounts/sales which framework doesn't offer.

Framework 13 Pro: £2064 (Ultra X7 358H, 16GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter)

Framework 13 Pro: £2264 (Ultra X7 358H, 32GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter)

MacBook Pro 14: £1699 (M5, 16GB, 1TB, no adapter)

MacBook Pro 14: £2099 (M5, 32GB, 1TB, no adapter)

MacBook Pro 14: £2199 (M5 Pro, 24GB, 1TB, no adapter) - added as I think it’s an even better deal

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I’d just keep in mind that you’re comparing a niche product from a startup breaking into a notoriously competitive market who are also doing the harder task of making these slim devices user upgradeable to a product from one of the largest companies in the world, with a CEO that is well known for being a master of supply chain, and with all of the economies of scale.

And they’re miraculously within 10-20% of each other.

Dumb comparison, because buying a Framework is a single transaction where I exchange money for a computer, and buying a Mac is an entrypoint to “The Ecosystem” where Apple wants to squeeze me for $<pricing_tier>/month forever.

Peep the margins on “Products” versus “Services” and you will understand what Apple's incentives are and why just selling me hardware isn't it: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2026-q1/FY26_Q1_Consol...

I've bought two Apple products in my life, both Macbook Pros, one in 2014 and one in 2021. I have a Pixel phone, zero transactions in the App Store all-time, pay $0 to Apple on any kind of subscription basis. Not disagreeing with the nature of their incentive structure, but if they're intentionally crippling their hardware division somehow to squeeze me for money, they're really bad at it.

Buying a Mac is also a single transaction. Yes, they have lots of other services they want to sell you on but you're in no way obliged to take them up on it.

I don't want to use a computer whose greatest aspiration is to be a sales funnel even if I am personally strong-willed enough to say no when nagged.

You’re imagining a “greatest aspiration” that doesn’t exist. macOS has an iCloud login button in the Settings app and that’s about it.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Music-dot-app is a great example. Check out all the ways it tries to upsell you even if you just want to play local files: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anrB6fP1WeQ&t=65s

- opens to a full-page Apple Music subscription service ad on first run.

- search functionality defaults to “Apple Music” instead of “Local Library” (or “iTunes Store”) even when the user has no active subscription.

- Apple Music subscription upsell banner ad along the bottom of the search results screen, that stays on screen as you scroll the results pane.

Check out at the end when he demos Music-dot-app's Settings pane changing to include CD-ripping settings when and only when a CD drive is available, something they could also do and chose not to for Apple Music subscription service when the user isn't subscribed.

Don't use the Music app. It's fully uninstallable, I don't think I've ever launched it. There are plenty of third party solutions available. I really don't consider Music.app to be a core OS feature.

Yeah no shit. I use Feishin personally: https://github.com/jeffvli/feishin

But I think it is very fair to judge the OOTB experience as a whole as a reflection of the company's priorities.

you are arguing with people who do actually use Macs by providing some random videos on youtube. How does that make sense?

> people who do actually use Macs

— Sent from my (work) MacBook Pro M3

macOS seriously never nags you about services. Service nags aren't classy. You can credibly accuse Apple of plenty of things, but having a lack of class isn't one.

My screenshots directory says you are wrong: https://i.ibb.co/cKjL8qcG/Screenshot-2025-02-18-at-09-07-06....

My last (and first, and only) iPhone was even worse. At one point the Settings app had no fewer than three paid-service nags at the top that I had to scroll through to even get to the first actual setting.

Storage almost full: enable iCloud Backup!

Try Apple Music, first month free!!

Activate your Apple News+ free trial!!! https://i.ibb.co/Cp275qQ9/news.webp

Image Playground isn’t a service, it’s a free local image generation model. But I’ll grant you that the News+ thing is kind of annoying. I wouldn’t call it a nag, though - it shows in the Settings anpp after you buy a new device that includes free months, while they’re still valid, then it goes away forever.

> while they’re still valid, then it goes away forever.

It actually stays, even after expired. Then if you tap the "two weeks free!" it says "expired, so sorry, but do want to pay us a slightly discounted rate instead of free?"

Then the alert went away.

Super scummy.

Source: happened a few months ago with the promo on my newish iphone 17 when I thought I'd try appletv out to watch pluribus.

This has not been my experience. I’ve never taken them up on any of those offers, and none of them are still visible in Settings on any of my devices.

It's really not, though. You don't even need an Apple account to set up a Mac.

I pay $3/month to Apple in exchange for full-quality backups of decades of photos, but I could easily stop doing that, or switch to another provider, if I wanted to. (I don't, because $3/month is extremely fair for what I get.) I've never paid for any other Apple service and likely never will. The OS never, ever nags me about services - compare that to Windows!

> or switch to another provider

Can you though? Its been a few years since I've been on apple, but being able to get anything but icloud native support in other apps was basically non-existent. Compared to android where it gives you a plethora of choice out of the box.

Yes - they're already on my computer, so any full-disk backup service will back them up by default. There's an option to purge them from disk and download from iCloud on demand, but you don't need to use it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/111762

ah fair, I was thinking on the iphone, but in fairness this is a thread about a laptop

Even on an iPhone you can back up your library to Google Photos or other services. You just can’t do so directly through Apple’s Photos app.

It's different on mobile (iOS/Android) where individual apps need special support for cloud providers. On a mac everything is just a file for most apps, so all the cloud providers work by default.

Whilst you don't "need" an Apple account to setup a Mac, using a Macbook without an account may not be viable for a lot of people.

First and foremost, you cannot install any applications through the primary method of app installation, which is the App Store.

You also cannot use certain applications like iMovie (which is pre-installed) without an Apple Account.

MacOS will always prompt you in the Settings to sign in with iCloud. Opt into Betas, including Public and Developer Betas are not possible without an iCloud account.

The Apple land is miles better than the Microsoft land, which you aptly point out though.

I've never seen it stated anywhere that the App Store is the primary method for macOS. Well, I could be wrong, maybe Apple does mention it somewhere, but pretty much every popular app publisher still publishes their .dmg file directly on their own website, much like most Windows developers.

At least I've never had to use the store in my 15+ years of using MacBooks, and I can't see myself using one anytime soon, unless Apple starts forcing you to (in which case I'll just stick to using homebrew).

You're also locked into their ecosystem for repairs, accessories etc. all of which are more expensive than anywhere else.

What kind of accessories? You can use cheap generic USB-C docks/hubs, depending on your needs. (macOS doesn't support DP MST so depending on # of screens you want to attach, you may need a more expensive dock, though it still doesn't have to be Apple-specific).

What $/month are you forced to buy for a Mac?

Does MBP run Linux? That would be the selling point for me ... But I guess I am not in a big group.

Also MBP is not really repairable at all.

> But I guess I am not in a big group.

Big enough that they specifically targeted that exact group with this laptop.

Probably a small group but worth more money.

M1 and M2 models run Asahi Linux, M3 and M4 don't run anything natively I think (but not entirely sure).

M1 and M2 run Linux but don't expect usable battery life, Thunderbolt output or a few other niceties.

Ah ofc I forgot. But iirc not everything works and battery life will probably suck, no? So not really a consideration in this case of price comparison. It is an option though :)

Personally I also can't stand the exterior design, albeit overall hardware of MBP is good. Guess if I land an old MBP this is what I'd do with it.

How is Thunderbolt or display port alt mode support?

https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/blob/main/docs/platform/f...

It is in progress.... Please support the project!

Practically, if you have AppleCare you don't need to worry about repairability.

I worry about e-waste and having AppleCare doesn't really help here.

I would love a MBP that ran Linux. I am not a fan of MacOS (though it's one of my two daily drivers).

What I really want is for other hardware vendors to catch up. I like Apple hardware but hate their software.

Yes, see https://asahilinux.org/

Would be super interested if any person on this planet uses this as the main driver.

Yes its much less annoying than macos on my m1 macbook.

I do, for work at least. Works nice aside from the lack of USB-C monitor (mine has a HDMI output so not a huge deal for me.)

In the dev branch now! https://asahilinux.org/2026/02/progress-report-6-19/

I will attempt to use Asahi as my daily driver once this is officially released.

I do.

Not the M5.

It eventually will. But OP never asked about M5 specifically.

No, but OP was comparing the pricing of brand new laptops, so it was implied that they wouldn't be M1/M2 hence not supported by Asahi.

Eventually in this context might be 4+ years from now.

AFAIK Asahi development needs some hypervisor features for reverse engineering macOS drivers that only exist on M1-M3 and were removed on M4+. So yeah, it may be several years until they get support (or never, if nobody steps up to do it).

On macbook you could emulate windows. Inside windows emulate linux. And it would still be much faster than this framework

Name checks out.

To nuance this, the more you go up in specs, the more macbook become more expensive than comparable framework. Try to compare with a 64GB framework or 2TB framework for example.

One benefit of framework is you may not need to get storage, and just go use the one in your current laptop, saving around £200. And you might even try to source the RAM on your own to save a few more. But I admit that is somewhat difficult these days haha.

We should also consider that repairability, upgradability and open hardware/software support don't come for free and are features that are worth paying for.

Everything that isn’t a MacBook will be more expensive than a MacBook, so you should choose a price you want to spend and then evaluate if you prefer a Framework or a Mac at that price point. If your available spending power is too low for a Framework, you’re not getting a Framework — and, separately, if you want a Framework for some reason specific to the Framework and can afford one, then the price of a Mac isn’t relevant unless a Mac can satisfy that same reason.

> Everything that isn’t a MacBook will be more expensive than a MacBook

Unrelated, but never thought I’d see this kind of sentiment

It's specifically aimed at Framework, though, not PCs in general.

Framework is very much a premium brand (where the premium experience is centred on repairability/upgradeability), and don't have the economies of scale Apple do. It's natural that they'd end up being more expensive.

> not PCs in general

Yeah, I’m assuming just the one of the various tiers here that’s in the same bucket as MacBooks, and that we’re generally talking devices that are specialty-capable; such as media production or Linux development or gaming or what have you. If you lump the entire “portable screen bigger than nine? inches and with an in-box physical keyboard and pointer controller” market together, you’ll disregard ‘glorified word processors’ that cost a couple hundred bucks (before the RAM underproduction grift) in their own specialty niche. Framework isn’t competing there, right? (I could have missed something..)

> Everything that isn’t a MacBook will be more expensive than a MacBook

Imagine telling this to someone in 2010 or 2015.

It was 2012 when I realized a midrange Macbook (not Pro or Air) was actually cost competitive with my PC laptop, and switched. There have been some configurations since then!

Back then I’d probably tell you how they hold their value and were cheaper in the long run anyway.

No one was willing to hear it back then, but some guy named Buffett knew what was up :)

Also very sad that the M5 dominates the X7 358H in singlethreaded performance, not to mention the M5 Pro that dominates it in both single- and multithreaded performance.

If anything brakes on the Framework, you get all the docs you need to attempt a repair yourself, also spare parts are available, also, you can upgrade SSD/RAM/Mainboard and ports.

Apple: Every repair is Mainboard replacement and costs 70% of the used value of the Notebook. Upgrades are impossible. Have a nice day!

This is largely driven by RAM prices, which is a real shame.

I bought a Thinkpad P16s with 64 GB of LPDDR5x ram in October 2024 for just over $1100.

64 GB of LPDDR5x will add $849 to the price of a Framework 13 Pro. Thats insane. I would love a future Framework 16 Pro but that will probably run $3500 for the configuration that I would want if memory and storage prices don't come down.

You need to consider the upgradability aspect too - the next time you want to upgrade, you just need to buy a new mainboard, which would be considerably cheaper than buying a whole new laptop.

A new mainboard that may need new memory. From another comment in thread:

  I have 64GB of DDR4 in my current laptop, and replacing that with the same amount of LPCAMM2 LPDDR5X is probably more expensive than the rest of the laptop itself.

And another:

  I just had my mainboard die, and I was advised there currently isn't another mainboard in stock that works with my old DDR4 RAM

At least it's available in the UK

I've wanted to get a Framework for a long time now, but their lack of shipping to Israel (and active prevention of using Freight forwarders) has prevented me.

If they were willing to sell me the 13 Pro, I'd sell my Yoga Pro 7 in a heartbeat to replace with a 13 Pro

Comparing it to a MacBook misses the point. The reason to buy the framework is modularity, repairability, customisability. You can upgrade your CPU, add specific ports you want, change ram. You can't do any of that with a Mac.

In his presentation, Nirav compared it twice to a MacBook. Even saying they want to build the MacBook of the Linux world iirc. While I also agree with you, it’s still a valid comparison.

It's not just a valid comparison; for some of us, it's the only comparison that matters. Upgradability and repairability are really nice features, but the machine still needs to otherwise be an upgrade over the one it's replacing.

If the Framework Pro holds up in reviews and works as well with Linux as claimed, it'll probably replace my M2 Air as a daily driver. If they add Dvorak as an option so I don't have to rearrange the keys myself, that will make the choice a slam dunk.

IMHO you should just stay with a Mac. The Framework Pro is the antithesis of a Mac, you can literally take your old framework's mainboard and network card and put them into the new chassis. Everything is replaceable. As long as they continue with that trend, it'll always be thicker and heavier than a Mac, and will always make compromises.

The video says that directly. They want to compete with MacBook, but people coming to Framework from Mac are attracted to the idea of owning their own computer and being able to customise it.

I'm not sure I understand your pitch. Most of those are features, not bugs. Why would I give up all of that plus first-class Linux support just to save checks notes 0.35mm in thickness?

"Upgradability and repairability are really nice features, but the machine still needs to otherwise be an upgrade over the one it's replacing."

You seemed like upgradability and repairability are secondary things to you, whereas the framework makes them its primary asset. It's unlikely the Framework Pro will ever be an "upgrade" over the MacBook in other areas. Comparing it to the MacBook completely skims over its most important differentiator.

Well that's also true, but "really nice features" still means the opposite of "terrible anti-features". All else being equal, I don't not want those things.

The more important part is first-class Linux support. From my perspective, macOS is basically discount Linux; it's tolerable, but only if the gulf between a MacBook and the next best hardware is wide enough to justify it.

Assuming the basics hold up well, upgradability and repairability likely push Framework Pro over the edge for me from merely "close enough" to "materially superior" on balance. I'd still be interested if it didn't have those features, but I'd also look more closely at alternatives and be less willing to pay a premium over the cost of an equivalently-specced MBP.

Yeah, it is a valid comparison, and assuming the quality is close to par with a macbook, I think it would be worth the extra cost.

I'm someone who doesn't want to go through a new laptop every other year. I've got an M1 mac right now. I've owned it for 5 years and could easily see myself getting another 5 years of use out of it. Only problem is, the hard drive is small, I can't upgrade it. It only has 16 GB RAM, which is fine for now, but I can't upgrade it. One of the 2 USB C ports gave out on me. I can't repair it.

If I had a laptop that I could repair and upgrade that also ran Linux? I would absolutely pay $2k for it - as long as the quality is good - because I think I would save money in the long term by making a laptop like that last a long time.

I use thinkpad (T14s now, X1 Carbon and X220 in the past). The hard drive is just m.sata and very easy to upgrade. You really can't upgrade the disk on a Mac?

not since like 2015, they're soldered on to the mainboard

how would they compare over 10-15 years though. with one you are able to swap out the motherboard when you want an upgrade and with the other you have to buy a completely new device.

then when it comes to repairing broken parts they are on opposite ends of the scale where apple actually go out of their way to make it harder for you to do that and its probably more expensive as well since only apple certified repair shops have access to certain parts

> the other you have to buy a completely new device.

You can sell the old Macbook and recoup a lot of the original investment.

On top of it, intel chips are not competitive with apple silicon. Why buy a laptop that's 30% slower and uses more energy for the same price?

30% slower than a M5 is a M3/M4. I will take that, thank, and not concern myself with MacOS or the thousand cuts of leaving x86.

To be able to run any OS you want.

Can it run macOS?

See https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM

For now, yes. But probably not for the next macos release.

To avoid having to use Mac OS, and suffering the whims of Apple.

For reference, comparing against a budget laptop:

Leno 14.1": £300.19 (i7-8650U, 16GB, 1TB) Leno 14.1": £341.59 (i7-8650U, 32GB, 1TB)

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005010289025003.html

If you're even making this comparison, buy the MBP or keep looking.

Price of computer vs iPad keyboard edition

Same in Germany, it ends around similar Apple and Thinkpad prices.

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