Hacker News Reader

Comment by causal | Hacker News Reader

I like the idea of civic engagement / service in theory too, but I feel like the Vietnam war was a demonstration of possible failure modes when draft is in place: a lot of poor kids died, some rich kids allegedly used parental influence to dodge the draft. No incentive for leaders to avoid war while loop holes remain for their own interests.

View on HN

I think you could argue the draft forced the war to be real for more families (and the expansion of TV), intensifying the resistance to it. Quick googling says almost 10% of the population served in Vietnam in some capacity. Less than 1% served in the War on Terror.

This was part of Charles Rangel's (D) reasoning to propose bringing back the draft. [1]

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_National_Service_Act

> I think you could argue the draft forced the war to be real for more families (and the expansion of TV), intensifying the resistance to it.

Yeah, it did, all the young men of draft age had to live knowing that they might get drafted and be forced to fight and die. Even if they were never called, or in retrospect were too old at the time.

We seem to have largely forgotten that now, along with the "Vietnam Syndrome" that the US military "suffered" through until we were successful in applying military force in 1991 with the Gulf War.

I almost hope they're successful in doing this. We've also lost the focus on clearly defined objectives for war.

It seems like we need a horrible mess to learn all the hard lessons all over again.

> We've also lost the focus on clearly defined objectives for war.

Are you saying we had this in Vietnam?

And I don't think the evidence is strong that these "hard lessons" did anything to keep that same generation from supporting the pointless wars that followed.

No, I'm saying we had that in the Gulf War, and we're sliding back to Vietnam.

Wildly different scenarios. You don't exactly get to pick how conveniently your enemy aligns themselves with objectives.

> It seems like we need a horrible mess to learn all the hard lessons all over again.

Indeed. This is all of human history. No matter what the problem is we are infatuated with the idea of the ultimate solution being exterminating everyone who does not agree with our worldview.

That argument falls flat, when considering regions like the Ukraine that are fighting for survival today.

And when contrasting with earlier times like the Civil War, where a draft was unpopular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrollment_Act

Drafts, and by extension wars, should be unpopular. War should be the last resort that no one wants to take. No one should be cheering for a war they won't have to participate in.

War has become too remote and comfortable for most Americans.

I don't think I follow why your examples contradict the argument. A draft will always be unpopular.

I misread.

I saw the television portion and thought you meant the televised war was what made it all too real.

Also the poor kids started killing the rich kids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragging

A major reason why the draft was stopped is that because when you take a disunified and unwilling populace and start giving them weapons, their target may not be the enemy.

The word allegedly should be dropped many ie.. Taco got out of it, however much better men John McCain, John Kerry, and Robert Mueller did not. Serving is okay if everyone serves no exceptions.

McCain and Kerry volunteered. Don't know about Mueller

People greatly overestimate the number of Vietnam vets who were drafted.

For others' sake, I double-checked: 2.59 million served, of which 648,500 were draftees. Right at 25%

Is there a study of soldiers who enlisted but only because their draft number was low? There were substantial benefits to enlisting, because you could choose your branch of service.

Should break that down by people who had enlisted before hostilities began. Material difference enlisting during peace time vs when there is an active theater of war.

It would be more interesting to see those numbers broken down by frontline service. What percentage of the guys actually dying in the jungle were drafted?

17,725 draftees died, just over 30% of all American combat deaths in the war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_draft

It isn't the number that were drafted that matters. It is the number who were enrolled who might have been drafted that matters.

A relative of mine who was of draft age during the Vietnam war, deliberately enlisted in the US army because he thought that this would reduce his chances of being sent to fight in Vietnam And it worked, he spent his time overseas in the military in Japan in a non-combat role. I'm sure many males of draft age made similar choices.

For maybe people, even one would be too many.

A formal declaration of war by Congress is the minimum.

Otherwise I agree that the incentives are warped.

Now you're talking crazy talk. Congress stepping up and fulfilling its constitutional role?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com