I don't know who David Moss is, I have no reason to trust him. His tweets I can see are practically nothing but Tesla and Grok shill posts.
1. https://www.thedrive.com/opinion/40604/five-things-my-roomba...
2. https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-tesla-actually-drove-itself-...
Totally fully self driving even though you need not one, not two, but three autonomous driving experts with you. And be sure to have a second car with you when your first autonomous vehicle strands you. Sure sounds like a reliable system ready for the masses to use on public roadways!
I’m not making any claims about FSD’s safety or how ready it is for mass usage on public roads. I am trying to figure out what information would convince you that someone has used FSD for thousands of miles without intervening. Does this count or not? If not, why?
I never doubted it, I just said I don't trust things Tesla states on their website (they're objectively known to lie, especially when it comes to videos about their self driving) and I don't trust randos on Twitter.
I will say though, the people in the article have a vested interest in pushing a pro-AV agenda. But in the end, sure, I guess they probably did have that trip they say they did.
It doesn't surprise me people managed to go thousands of miles without disengaging especially since it sounds like this isn't their first time trying (flip a coin enough and you'll possibly get heads several times in a row after all) and that's nearly all highway miles. I've personally driven many shots on a non-Tesla well over 150 miles hands-free without any disengagements on a system that attempts less than what Tesla does. The only disengagements for most of those drives were to exit the highway to charge. You pick a route that has easy to get to chargers, you don't venture off the highways much, sure sounds possible to me. In the end though I don't personally see it as that radical of a difference on a road trip. On a nearly 300mi drive I probably directly operated the car like 5 of those miles total. Is risking people's lives at the surface street parts with beta software worth that last little bit?
Note, that's several thousand miles of no disengagements on a long, pre-planned cross country drive. Not 10,000 miles of driving around in a city and having all the other randomness of life peppered in. So what are we really measuring here? I'm sure we could get it to 500,000mi or more on a closed course if we wanted to. Although, after saying that, they still haven't on the Las Vegas Loop, so...maybe not?
And people act like this is delivering what Elon promised about cross-country autonomous driving. But it's not. They still needed the driver there in the car, paying attention the whole way. They still needed to charge it themselves. So we're a decade late and we still don't actually have what was promised.
Regarding the rest of your comment: Again, nowhere in this thread am I making any claims about FSD’s safety or how ready it is for mass usage on public roads. I am not saying it lives up to the promises or that it has been delivered on schedule. You are making arguments against beliefs I do not hold. That is a waste of time for both of us.
The point I am making is that other brands have zero examples of consumers using them on public roads without intervention for thousands of consecutive miles, so claiming they are equivalent or better in capability to FSD is not accurate.
I called you crazy for citing a website known for publishing lies.
> only to be gaslit about the need to provide it
I never asked for you to go digging. Your own personal drive to stan for Tesla did that.
> claiming they are equivalent or better in capability to FSD is not accurate.
I'm not saying they're 100% exactly the same. I'm just saying spending 5 miles actually operating the car on a several hundred mile road trip is pretty much the same as not touching the wheel at all to me if I'm still ultimately responsible for the operation of the car. In the end I had to completely pay attention the whole way. Until it's actually (Unsupervised) it's really mostly the same to me. Especially since I can't really trust the not-full not-self driving to not get into an accident or kill someone with me as the one responsible.
In the end they're both level 2 systems.
Have Tesla and its fanboys overstated FSD’s capabilities? Absolutely. But I’m not saying that FSD is currently good enough that one should expect to have thousands of miles between interventions. I’m trying to convince someone that it has been done. The reason I’m trying to do this is because that same cannot be said for any other self-driving technology available in a consumer vehicle today, so claiming that FSD is no better than competing offerings is not accurate. FSD overhyped? Sure. Late? Extremely. Fraudulent, bordering on criminal? I could see that. But it’s still in a league of its own in terms of what it can do.
That’s not at all true. Very few people take the time to drive thousands of miles in a short period of time and document it while never intervening for any reason (not even accidentally bumping the wheel).
Anyways, I remember you. You claimed that Tesla would never remove safety drivers from their robotaxis.[1] I tried to get us to bet on this prediction but you never replied.
Well, Tesla has removed safety drivers from some of their robotaxis, meaning your prediction that their technology is “never going to be reliable enough” was falsified within a few months.
"Tesla has removed safety drivers from some of their robotaxis"
Why doesn't Tesla has as many empty Robotaxis as Waymo has cars? Because Robotaxis aren't good enough. The entire Robotaxi rollout is a very carefully choreographed smoke and mirrors show to inflate Tesla share price. Tesla doesn't even have the permits to operate Robotaxis in California and probably never will because they are actually stricter vs Texas.
I'd like to note that in just a few months, the goalposts have moved from "Tesla will never get rid of their safety drivers in their Robotaxis" to "Tesla will never operate Robotaxis in California."
As before, would you like to bet on your prediction? I'm willing to wager you any amount up to $1,000 that before the end of 2028, Tesla will have Robotaxis in California, available to the public, without a safety driver. Note that this may not require a permit for deployment, just driverless testing, as that is how Waymo currently operates.[1]
December 31st, 2028 may seem like a long ways off, but it's much sooner than never.
1. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...
They didn't though, they just moved them to a chase car. Because Elon Musk is an incredibly successful con artist. Why isn't every robotaxi driverless and open to the public like Waymo is? Tesla is so far behind Waymo it is laughable.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musk-t...
Tesla touts California robotaxis but does nothing to get permits
Documenting driverless testing miles is critical for a series of permits
Tesla logged zero miles last year in California for the sixth straight year
Waymo documented 13 million miles over a decade before securing driverless ride-hailing permit
Will you take the bet or not?
1. https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/1qqlpgg/un...
2. https://waymo.com/blog/2025/12/autonomously-navigating-the-r...
Luckily that's not a requirement here. If your 1 example, your 1 datapoint isn't a fluke, then someone driving 100 miles should have 1/10th the interruptions as someone driving 1000 miles.
If you have to intervene 0 times in 1000 miles, and that isn't an outler, then we should expect to see 0 intervention required in all 100 mile drives, all 10 mile drives, and all 1 mile drives. Unless it's a fluke.
Statistics > 1 anecdotal post about a car on the car company CEO's website.
You can actually do the math to find out the sample size you would need to derive a statistically significant conclusion. No need to be incredulous at my answer to your question: it's basic statistics.
As an aside: in general, if you find yourself going to a single person for data and expertise, you might be falling victim to a personality cult.
Nowhere in this thread am I claiming that FSD is safe enough to be used without human oversight. I'm also not claiming that Tesla has delivered on their promises (they obviously haven't). I am comparing the capabilities of autonomous systems using evidence that is publicly available. Since we don't have comparable statistics across manufacturers or some sort of standardized road test, I think "miles between human interventions" is a useful measure of autonomous capabilities. That's what has been used to demonstrate safety of other autonomous systems, and I see no good reason why such a metric should be ignored in this case.
We don't have data on the intervention rate of Teslas, either. So far all you've presented is a single, non-statistically-significant anecdote.
>I think "miles between human interventions" is a useful measure of autonomous capabilities.
Exactly. What is Tesla's average miles between human intervention? The anecdote you presented is maybe 1/1000th of the minimum data you would need (of randomly selected participants) to answer that question. 1,000 is a bold claim, it requires statistically significant evidence