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I agree. In my case I am physically very fit but sometimes neglect my health in other ways, including mentally and definitely including poor sleep habits.

Regarding what you said about focus, I think an ADHD diagnosis might help a lot of people here. I suggest asking for a full profile including WAIS testing, which assesses intelligence, because it is the "deficit" between various types of intelligence and attention that matters. Highly intelligent people sometimes are overlooked because their focus, working memory, etc. seem normal or even better than average, but the gap between those and their intellectual capacity creates a lot friction at least for some people.

I recently got diagnosed and am really looking forward to taking a low dose of stimulants in the mornings on work days, I hope it will help me "find a clear path" in my professional life.

What drove you to get the diagnosis?

My wife was diagnosed within last 2 years and thinks it has changed (and helped) her come to terms with a number of behaviors. And learn how to resolve/improve.

I wonder about me, too. Haven't done it. Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?

>Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?

Hear me out on this, while it often may seem to be the case that it looks like everyone has it, it very well may just be that you unknowingly choose your surrounding in a way that simply everyone around you has it.

You mean all these intense type-A New Yorkers around me?!

Difficulties navigating everyday life and my career pretty much, I am intelligent and capable but the struggle to manage everything was becoming too much.

How do you concretely get a diagnosis? Do you just ask your doctor for one?

yep, or call a clinic that does it. Search for MOXO, DIVA 5. The most important part is education. Sure, the medication helps, but understanding the root causes of mood swings, motivation, executive functions, hyperfocus, perfectionism, and emotional dysregulation is so important.

Educating yourself on how the brain works, the most important organ, is hugely underrated. Imagine playing a game with only half the screen visible. You wouldn’t see your stats, enemy info, or the map. It would be frustrating to play.

On the other hand, outcome-driven fitness (pursuing a goal like "i want to get shredded") never worked for me as well as process-focused.

I have strong legs not because that was a goal, but because I fell in love with cycling and never set ANY goals, just enjoyed getting out and riding my serotonin machine.

That might be more sustainable for some people, but if your interests/hobbies are constantly in flux (which mine are as well to an extent), maybe not. I need to find a way to enjoy the process of sleeping more.

I wish I could be like that. I'm more or less a result-driven person, but whenever a result is achieved (e.g. complete all xv6 labs) I became lost and frustrated, and was eager to find the next one. But my mind was usually burnt out during the previous process, so it usually takes a few months of frustration to get everything settled so that I could move on.

The "pinball" concept in "The Soul of a New Machine" rings very true to me -- "The motivational system is akin to the game of pinball, the analogy being that if you win this round, you get to play the game again." -- this is exactly what I feel. But the pinball game is more and more difficult, sometimes too difficult for my fragile mind -- and I still have a day job and a family to take care of.

Same here, I guess this mode caters to specific type of personality (not obsessive about goals, achievements, not constantly comparing against others - at least I am none of those).

I like going to gym for past 15 years, it feels great to do some free weights. Not destroy myself, just a good workout. Body adjusting/maintaining not-a-bad-shape is a nice bonus.

In my case, I often find life goals and enjoy the journey when I'm mentally healthy, not vice versa.

I can't control my mood, but when I am positive, I start a new hobby like dancing or playing an instrument, cook healthy, lift, sleep well, study new things, etc. But when I'm depressed, I lose all interest in my life goals, eat junk food, skip exercise, and browse the Internet all night. I can't even enjoy my hobbies anymore.

It's always my mood that comes first, then I can find life goals and naturally do all healthy stuff.

Funnily, when I'm mentally healthy I also visit Hacker News frequently, but when I'm depressed all I do is infinite scrolling Reddit/TikTok.

That could definitely the case. I can't really tell which one comes first, mood or objective.

It could be a bit like that elusive thing called motivation. "Just do it" seems so annoying when people say it but in my case sometimes its the only way to start building momentum. What im saying is dont wait for mood, perhaps the mood will develop once you obtain momentum on a goal or task.

Yeah I do hold this attitude and try to side brush "mood", which I believe is a mere suggestion, not a command. However I noticed a completely different "mode" when I'm operating IN project and BETWEEN projects.

When I'm IN project, "just do it" works very well. But when I'm BETWEEN projects (this is when I completed a project, and dived into the next project, but found out that I did not enjoy it or got lost or whatever), "just do it" only works when "just do it" -- it doesn't really create a focus needed to move the projects forward. What I got frustrated is that this IN BETWEEN period could take multiple months to get out, which is a super waste of time. If only I could figure out as soon as I completed the previous project, I'd achieve so much more -- you see, for the type of projects I'm working on, I could not afford to wait for several months, or even several weeks -- because this is not my daily job, so if I wait for too long I'm going to lose the knowledge -- it's like muscle training, you can't stop for several weeks and hope muscle retains.

I use the “just do it” trick a lot myself. It was something I discovered when I was in my early 20s, hiking the Appalachian Trail, which requires you to get up and move every day. My partner and I did not have much money, so if we failed to finish, we would not have a second chance. I remember waking up one morning after a rainstorm, realizing that I left my boots outside the tent. They were cold and wet. Putting them on was going to be unpleasant. I thought “I just need to do it so that I can have other things that I want in my life.” Something clicked in that moment. Now, whenever I don’t want to do something I ask “does it help me do or be what I want?” It helps a lot. From big goals (eg, earn a degree, get the job I want, etc) to little tasks (take out the garbage, clean the toilets, etc). Oddly I find the little jobs to be the hardest, probably because although I recognize that living in a house with clean toilets is something I want, it’s not obviously connected with a motivating goal. This mental trick is very helpful for the little tasks.

It really is. Exercise and eating well was an activity I became capable of participating in as a result of the correct therapy and dramatically boosted its effects, not something I could persist at when already depressed.

When people claim the contrary it's feels more of a test to see if you can be perceived as responsible enough for your own actions to be worth helping. An individualistic mindset like that isn't very productive at alleviating depression.

Have you been to therapy? What did it look like? I'm thinking about getting one, but I'm not sure whether anyone could fix me when I'm fundamentally unhappy about life -- but definitely not to the point to consider suicide.

I think we're soulmates. You articulated so well what I think about my own approach or lack of approach.

> Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.

Agree, at least in concept. I'm aware that some of my perceived or real lack of of progress in some life areas is due to mental instability. Various forms of it, some more active than others or present than others.

A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.

But do I like the passion or do I just not have clear goals? What should they be?

In 2022 I was evaluating a senior position at a start-up and a friend asked: "what are your goals, or what are you solving for." My wife asks this question too.

And I tend to stare somewhat blank at the question. As an adult, the goals I'm sure I want have much less to do with career and much more with self. Be happy. Be productive. Be a warm and loving person. Be a responsible, fun, constructive parent.

That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity. And so I've resorted over time to likely unproductive/destructive approaches - more argumentative than necessary, sometimes very responsive, sometimes unresponsive, substances and behavioral things that look like bad habits, addictions, etc.

What do you do to work through these challenges?

Work to live, not the other way around. Work produces income and is a means to an end.

Drill down a couple of levels on what it means to you to be happy, productive, warm, and loving. What do an ideal day and week look and feel like? What kind of life would you like your kids to have? Not abstractly. What would their ideal school situation be? How far from school? Any special opportunities like certain clubs, interest in playing an instrument, sports teams? Do you just do weekend warrior stuff, or does being a responsible, fun, constructive parent mean you’re picking them up after school regularly to go make memories?

Let’s say it’s something like the last bit for a moment. “Begin with the end in mind” is one of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and in this case, the end is being a fun parent by going for ice cream or to the park or watch a movie or take guitar lessons together a couple of days a week after school. To make that happen, you’ll need to have flexible work hours and maybe a work location near their ideal school. Do the rare and valuable knowledge and skills that you’ve accumulated allow you do that? If so, great! You’re passionate about being a good parent; you don’t need that from your job. Your job is a means to an end. If the current conditions of your job get in the way of your goal of being a responsible, fun, constructive parent, how could you modify job parameters?

There’s no right answer. There’s your answer. What do you want for your kids? What do you want for you and your wife now and after they’ve left the nest? Walk around in a day, a week of that life in your head. There’s your end. Work backward from there.

> A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.

I think maybe you can move into a managerial position that doesn't need to do much in the trench, or become a trainer in that field.

> That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity.

Yeah. I figured there is a lot of ambiguity in life objectives, and there is no one there to help you. You just have yourself in this game.

> What do you do to work through these challenges?

TBH, I do not know what to do. I have a toolbox for the "down" time, but neither of them really solves it. Sometimes I listen to "Napoleon Hill" episodes to give me some motivation (this one I listened to today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5jAzHpI3w). Sometimes I talked to myself and tried to sort out something. Sometimes I talked to ChatGPT and asked it to give me a list of something.

I kinda think there is no magic pills for such situations and one just has to grit through.

Maybe grit is the answer. I don’t know. I agree that to some degree momentum of any kind helps break a rabbit-hole moment. But it’s not that alone that always solve the problem.

One thing I know helps. Keep talking to people Keep conversation flowing who buddies, connections, or new acquaintances.

So happy to find ways to connect here too if having a sparring moment during these moments helps!

I agree. It's just a tool that may or may not be useful. I also found that getting rid of caffeine for a couple of weeks, and then take up a cup, gives a much larger boosts to the mood.

I wonder if it would help thinking through what makes you feel satisfied. I think many of us feel a bit crushed and demotivated when the reason to get up every day is extrinsic: taking care of somebody else, solving problems for somebody else, etc. Even if you are skilled at those tasks, it can feel pointless even if you recognize intellectually that they are important.

I’ve always felt that there was a big difference between doing something and doing something well. My grandfather, who grew up in an immigrant family on a farm during the Great Depression, used to say “do it well or don’t do it at all.” And it showed in his actions. He would spend enormous amounts of time doing things that just did not seem worth it to me at the time; eg, he obsessed about growing flowers when he had all these other skills that could be making him money. When I finally understood what drove him—that nearly any task can feel worthwhile when you move from simply doing it to doing it as best you can-it changed my relationship with work and other tasks in life. Another commenter here suggests that you should “work to live” and not the other way around, but I don’t really see them as separate. If you have the quality relationship with work in mind when you do it, when you connect it to doing things well, it’s hard to avoid feeling like your actions are also a part of living excellently, and for me at least, that fills me with a tremendous feeling of satisfaction.

I was a bit skeptical about “do it well or don’t do it at all.” but then I realized my father is like that and then I understand. He might be a bit messy about very small things in life, but he is dead serious about anything else. The "smart" part is just NOT do anything you don't care, it seems.

For me, I wish I could be like that. I definitely need to work harder to achieve that. I tend to gloss over anything I don't like. Maybe that's why I never learned to grit through in my 40 or so years of life.

I’ve always envisioned those states as ‘swimming’ versus ‘treading water.’

The deal I have with myself is that it’s okay to tread water for a while - if you’re tired, if you need a break, if you’re not quite sure where to go next - but you can’t wait too long, because the current will move you wherever it wants. To get where you want, you’re always going to have to start swimming again.

This is the type of hen-egg dialectic that takes me straight to evolutionary theory. My guess is that the 'standard human tribe', ~200 strong, needs some people to be up at night. But since we don't have dedicated day/night humans, we all get this shared mess of a genome 'you need to be up at night sometimes'.

> But since we don't have dedicated day/night humans

Yeah we absolutely do. The night-owls and larks are pretty well established at this point.

Or it could simply be that you perceive your life as more happy and can find clearer goals when you exercise, eat healthier food and get good sleep, which is overwhelmingly the case and pretty obvious once you once you stop treating willpower as if it can magically stand in for unmet physiological needs.

For me there is definitely a blocking factor, like awaiting for a click, before I can move into exercises and healthier food and such. Maybe it is a rare case and I do wish it is the other way around.

Actually now that I think about it, "The Soul of the New Machine" / "Showstopper" both describe this kind of mental (although I'm far from a good engineer) when engineers are done with a project, they get frustrated during the waiting period between two projects. This is pretty similar to what I felt -- whenever I finished a project, I tried to find new projects to work on immediately, not want to lose the momentum, but frustration quickly mounts among 1) I was burnt out temporarily but could not take a break, and 2) It's hard to find projects suitable for my level. It usually took a few months for this frustration to pass, which is frustrating by itself.

Most people who are not happy are not happy precisely because they can't find a clear path to reach happiness. It's the realization you are stuck in a shitty spot that makes the true feeling of unhappiness. A lot of people are also restricted by their own body and mind through mental and physical illness which makes pursuing basic goals frustrating not rewarding. Also a lot of people get rejected when they chase girls and fail when they take IQ tests or pursue high paying work.... I guess your worldview makes sense for smart winners but how does it work for the other half of the world?

I'm actually neither smart nor winning, at least from my perspective. The only winners are those who can do whatever they want and can say No to anything they don't enjoy. There are very few of them. The majority of the rest of us are similar, regardless of whether you are making 100K or 500K. Then there are the homeless/jobless people who are struggling with basic needs.

I'm not sure which half you are talking about, but I'm really bad at giving advice, especially to people in different situations. I do not have the authority or capacity to help others genuinely.

" The only winners are those who can do whatever they want and can say No to anything they don't enjoy. "

its actually sad that I can do this in some ways financially but internally I am trapped lol

I wish you figure it out eventually. At least you have the financial buffer to try things :D

this mirrors my experience too. I’ll just add that some times taking a complete break from work is necessary to find the mental clarity to reach the state where learning, stability and happiness are possible.

Yeah I think that helps, too. Unfortunately most of us cannot do that. I found a few days is not enough. At least 2 weeks.

I used to be able to do this but after having kids they always seem to reset the clock before you can make any headway. I still have not figured out how to regain the clarity. There is no substitute for unobstructed long stretches of time to focus on something. Being unexpectedly interrupted or put on a schedule just ruins it.

I have a kid and I get it. I'm actually a bit scared about long vacations and weekends nowadays. But I hope we will figure out a way when kid grows up a bit. Right now, it's all luck. I'm even thinking about getting rid of my hobbies and find new ones that match kid's education and activity, but not sure about that.

When your dreams and visions die, you don’t have any reason to believe in yourself, and you’re pretty much the walking dead

Yep that's what I feel when I have lost my purpose. "Man shall not live by bread alone", so said Dostoevsky.

Interesting, I didn’t know Dostoevsky also made this popular (unless you’re just tongue-in-cheek ignoring the earlier source, which is the Bible)

Yes you are right, he was quoting from the Bible.

I quite agree with your point; I believe the essential conditions for success are clear goals, well-defined steps, and a calm mindset.

Yeah. It's so hard to get them. The people I look up to (John Carmack, David Cutler) all have these traits.

The reasons people do not get enough sleep or aren't fit are vastly more varied and complex compared with what you propose here.

> I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true

Growing up is realizing how infinitesimally narrow your particular slice of reality is.

This comment is obviously true but uninteresting if you don't elaborate further on those causes

What I mean is, the comment you replied to isolated a specific cause and sparked a discussion; your comment, if taken at face value, is thought-terminating. How can we possibly comprehend all causes of complex phenomena before we are allowed to discuss them?

About the universally true thing, I understood it as whether people that's unhappy with life generally have trouble sleeping, not whether everyone that have trouble sleeping is unhappy with life. Still probably not an universal but is more reasonable sounding

The comment I replied to suggested that people who are not fit or suffer from sleep disturbances are willfully unhappy. I don't feel it requires much thought or experience with the subject matter to see that this is false. There are many easy counterexamples which I'm sure you can come up with even if you are only barely determined

No one is disallowing the parent, you, or anyone else from discussing or thinking about complex phenomena. If someone is not putting in the work to engage with the material, others are free to point it out, and they do so at their leisure.

I hold others to a higher standard when the stakes are higher. Specifically, the post I commented on was (likely unintentionally) not only factually wrong, but stigmatizing people with sleep disturbances. This is why my tone was dismissive and condescending. This was intentional.

I don't care to give examples because they are easy to find if you are asking in good faith. I even posted one in direct reply to TFA.

It's definitely my fault to overgeneralize from a sample size of 1. Perhaps it would be better if I simply try to reach out for similar cases.