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Comment by jt2190 | Hacker News Reader

> The lopsidedness was driven by huge growth in health care, where women hold nearly 80% of jobs. Over the past 12 months, health care alone added 390,000 jobs, more than in the economy overall, making up for job losses elsewhere.

i.e. Nursing jobs mostly go to women not because men can’t do them because “nurses aren’t men”, per our current cultural norms.

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There's been a lot of talk about "toxic masculinity" over the years but I've heard of and would worry about the female equivalent if I were considering a role in nursing as a man. Many stories where the only man in the room is expected to be, simultaneously, a punching bag, a mediator for drama, and a willing recipient of sexual advances. Seems awful

> Many stories where the only man in the room is expected to be, simultaneously, a punching bag, a mediator for drama, and a willing recipient of sexual advances.

In other words, men in nursing are treated to the same indignities that women experience in most jobs?

Or it might simply be that there is a lot of unreported or unacknowledged mistreatment of men. I recall reading a study about harassment in the restaurant industry. Both genders were harassed but harassment towards men was largely ignored in the analysis because it didn't fit the focus or narrative of the authors.

As a man who has worked in a predominantly female workplace, my experience has taught me that harassment is less about gender and more about power. Those in power will always feel entitled to behave poorly, regardless of gender.

> Or it might simply be that there is a lot of unreported or unacknowledged mistreatment of men.

I am sure that there's a lot of unreported mistreatment of anyone who represents a minority in a given profession.

Are you saying this should be acceptable behavior? Am eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.

Rather, I am pointing out that irony in the hope that men, dismayed by the treatment of men in certain professions, but find within themselves the empathy to appreciate what women go through and to adjust their behavior accordingly.

You seem to be assuming that the men who exhibit toxic behavior toward women are the same people as those who find such behavior appaling when it’s toward men. Do you have any evidence for that?

Yes, I know many such people personally.

So male nurses should put up with toxic behavior so they can learn “empathy” and adjust their behavior. Sounds sociopathic, don't you think?

I feel that you are deliberately misinterpreting what I said in an effort to fit your own agenda. I never said anyone should put up with toxic behavior. What I said is that men should stop being toxic. That's what "adjust their behavior" means.

To be fair your message sounded provocative and it came through as suggesting that to me too. But i guess this is the problem with text, not easy to deliver the tone

My agenda is against the obviously discriminatory stance that “men should stop being toxic”. It seems like a lot of people “deliberately” misinterpreted you, so maybe the problem is actually you.

Out of that list only sexual advances apply to men. So no its not the same. Having worked in mostly female workplace i can confirm the pissing matches there are on a whole new level.

What you're doing here is part of the problem. "Suck it up, buttercup!"

Many men would rather not work and deal with the financial and social consequences of that than deal with the toxicity both in the workplace and later on if they talk about it.

> What you're doing here is part of the problem. "Suck it up, buttercup!"

I literally have no idea how you could have extracted that interpretation from my comment.

Yes, the main difference being we have no systems in place to deal with that for men. Or, the broader societal context: men have never had a progressive movement.

Or also being the only male hire in something like HR department.

sarcasm? most of the people i hang with are nurses and instances of female bullying at the workplace is annoying at worst where their more sinister stories are about men stalking and making sexual advances. both male and female nurses telling me these stories at parties

When a company hires for an entry level public facing position, they always mean a young individual with a welcoming smile instead of a bald middle aged man who has been unemployed for two years. That's something that everybody knows and even the most progressive HR department, overtly or tacitly, will try to enforce. Society is full of small hidden prejudices that people don't really see as harmful.

seems regional. in the pnw i have male friends who wish they went into nursing

edit: said "quite a few" originally but then only counted 3

> seems regional. in the pnw i have male friends who wish they went into nursing

Hah, most of the people I know in the field, especially on that end of are desperate to get out of nursing. One was pursing some sort of environmental engineering degree.

The pay looks ok on paper, but the hours are apparently horrendous.

locally overtime pays big. otherwise its 3 x 12-hour shifts a week. when youre done, you go home and noone expects unpaid effort because unions are strong. our regional unions are rising tides and support each other during strikes

people burn out because it certainly causes ptsd but its not the hours, its often the patients. just takes one abusive patient to cause enough ptsd to sour someone on the profession entirely

It apparently also has the highest injury rate of any major employment category in the US.

From experiences of friends in the profession, the male nurses are "automatically" assigned all the "lift the patient" sorts of jobs, leading to their injury rates. You really can't put a weight limit on lifting a human being in an emergency situation, OSHA be damned.

> You really can't put a weight limit on lifting a human being in an emergency situation, OSHA be damned.

there are protocols for using equipment that are supposed to be required and again it depends on the strength and community of a nursing union. going against these protocols in favor of an "emergency response" undermines the union and local culture drives adherence to these protocols. around here your coworkers would bite your head off for ignoring the protocols. not only risking your own literal back, but inviting a lawsuit if you slip and anything goes wrong

The job itself caters to the natural disposition of women much more than men. That said, having a some male nurses in every hospital to me is mandatory. You need men in those teams for various reasons. But overall the job caters to women.

I also believe the number of female primary care physicians recently surpassed men. Or at least in Family Medicine, or something like that.

how? i dont think it caters to anyone particularly. in my experience its a quite physical job where, education being equal, caters toward motor skills, endurance, and strength. i think historically women were in nursing because they didnt fight in war, then the next generation saw nursing as a viable career for women repeat repeat repeat

It is quite a physical job, and nowadays very exhausting. Besides the play on the name itself, "nursing" (which only women can do, naturally), the general aspects of taking care of a person the way nurses are required to, caters more to the natural motherly nature of women.

There's always leeway to what I'm saying though. I'm generalizing.

the most interesting point is yours about the name of the profession. wonder if we see that change in the near future

> The job itself caters to the natural disposition of women much more than men.

Imagine saying that about, I dunno, the field of computing.

Sure, let's do it:

"Sitting in front of a computer geeking out about code, engineering, and electrical signals, caters much more to men than women."

And that's a fact. Women prefer relational jobs.

would go as far to say it caters more to trans women then men?

I have no idea how men who take hormones and hormone-blockers feel and prefer. Haven't studied the matter that deeply. I'd say it alters preferences, but that's a wild guess.

"The job itself caters to my personal ideation of women much more than men."

No, it's common sense, nature/biology-based facts about women (XY). It's like saying females do just as well in the field of battle as men.... no, they don't. Or women becoming plumbers, electricians, oil-rig workers, constructions workers, brick laying, road maintenance, operating heavy and loud machinery, etc, etc. Jobs obviously more for men than women.

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