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Comment by mikkupikku | Hacker News Reader

Oh no!

...anyway... Seriously bros, this is a war where one side is making wildly inflammatory, specific and credible threats against the civilian infrastructure of the other and this is a response to that, hardly even a response in kind. If they strike these assets it will cause financial burden for rich people, not plunge millions of civilians into darkness as the POTUS is credibly threatening to do.

Iranian attacks on US soil: Fuck all! So why is America fighting Iran? Insane ziofascist cultists picking fights on the other side of the planet to provoke the Apocalypse so they can all be raptured to paradise. (Translation: boomers are getting old and they want to see burning flesh one more time before they die.)

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Iran has threatened to destroy water supplies in the Gulf states, which would kill huge numbers of people.

Wasn’t that in response to Trump posting that he’d hit theirs?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-live-hegseth-and...

> In a Truth Social post on March 30, Trump warned that the U.S. would obliterate "all of their Electric Generating Plants, Oil Wells and Kharg Island (and possibly all desalinization plants!), which we have purposefully not yet 'touched.'"

Iran was having a water crisis before all this, to the extent of considering relocating the capital city away from Tehran's current location. Bombing Iranian water infrastructure will kill a lot of civilians, just as similar things happened in the Yemeni civil war (which Iran is a participant in). It's disheartening how much the prospect of mass murder is met with a shrug.

It follows Trumps threats to destroy power plants, but predates the threat you quote. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/22/iran-says-dest...

AFAIK there is no exemption that says it is OK to commit war crimes if the other side does.

If attacking power plants and oil production is a war crime, then Russia, Ukraine, and many other countries are guilty of it.

> AFAIK there is no exemption that says it is OK to commit war crimes if the other side does.

Of course not, but I still think the expectation that someone doesn't commit war crimes against you disappears relatively quickly when you're openly and proudly admitting you'll open to violating the rules of war and saying international humanitarian law doesn't matter.

That may be so, but remember that Ukraine is fighting for its very survival, and Iran may be as well.

> Wasn’t that in response to Trump posting that he’d hit theirs?

It's Iran. They haven't been following international law since 1979. That isn't an excuse to commit war crimes against them. But Iran really doesn't have any legs to stand on when it comes to complaining about targeting civilian infrastructure–they and their proxies have been doing this for decades.

>They haven't been following international law since 1979.

History doesn't start in 1979. Why not go back to 1953? Overthrowing another country's elected government is no more conscionable under international law.

> Why not go back to 1953? Overthrowing another country's elected government is no more conscionable under international law

Nobody said you can't. I don't think the point is undermined. Neither the U.S. nor Iran have shown any consistent affection for international law.

This "both sides" game does not carry much weight when one side, the US and Britain, made the bad faith move on Iran first.

Stubbing one's toe and complaining "both sides" - the pebble and me.

Complaining I am being hit back because I hit first, does not elicit support. Especially, when one is less than forthcoming about who made the move on a sovereign country first. Made a move just because that country had resources you are interested in.

If you want the resource then buy it. Norway nationalised it's oil, Iran had equal sovereign right to do so.

You and I agree on many things. This one is not one of them.

> This "both sides" game does not carry much weight when one side, the US and Britain, made the bad faith move on Iran first

Trying to disentangle who did what first in the Middle East is a fool's errand. Practically any living human can trace descendence to someone who was harmed by any other group in that region because that's where the first civilisation was born and almost every one after it had cause for crossroads.

> Complaining I am being hit back because I hit first, does not elicit support

If one dude stabs another, they're at fault. If that dude stabs the first one back, I'm sympathetic to their cause of action but not how they prosecuted it.

> Norway nationalised it's oil, Iran had equal sovereign right to do so

If Iran nationalised its oil and then didn't go on a vendetta against Israel, together with various spawned proxy groups dotting the region, every one of their neighbors wouldn't be standing by today while they get pummeled.

> Trying to disentangle who did what first in the Middle East is a fool's errand.

Not at all and we are talking Iran not ME in general. Your sentence recalls to the mind that famous quote by Upton Sinclair about self imposed lack of comprehension.

It's ridiculous to think of a just prosecution when only one side is held accountable and the other gets hegemony enforced immunity.

When Iran nationalised their oil US used a military coup to upend their parliamentary democracy and place a puppet dictator in place, who among other things ran torture camps for dissenters. Iran's action are a retaliation against US and its proxies who have meddled and attacked Iran's sovereign destiny and financial health.

Hardly anyone consistently follows international law.

At least the Iran leaders are not out of control nutjobs, compared to US president, and electorat/cronnies who put him to power and gave him nukes:

CNN: Trump threatens Iran ahead of deadline: "A whole civilization will die tonight" (speaking about 92 million people)

Just claiming something doesn't make it true. And also there's the whole scale thing.

> there's the whole scale thing

Sort of? I don't think that's really how war crimes work. Unless we're objectively in eye-for-an-eye territory, in which case we're not really talking about international law anymore. (To be clear, I think everyone talking about international law in this conflict is posturing. We've been collectively setting new norms for years, and between Russia, China and America, the rules seem to have inched closer to total war.)

It doesn't matter. Killing 34 something children like Hamas did vs 20 000 something children like Israel did in the same conflict.

Or threatening some water facility in a country with functioning air defense vs threatening entire population of 92 million with complete anihilation ("A whole civilization will die tonight" like Trump just said on behalf of all americans - credible threat from a nuclear superpower with enough nukes to spare), in a country where they can't really defend against this other than spreading the costs on enemy-allied countries.

There's bad, and there's 100x worse. And yeah, people should focus on stopping the 100x worse first, is my belief.

> people should focus on stopping the 100x worse first

That's fair. When I see conflicts like this, I tend to sit back and observe. There are enough conflicts on the planet where both sides are not being bastards, and where the diffences in scale of bastardly doesn't clearly map to differences in capability (versus will).

After America attacked them, sure, and in any case they aren't even attacking America, so again, why is America involved?

My personal opinion is that, it's because with the previous political and cultural trends, West had (maybe still has) actually quite high chances of collapsing and falling in the long term due to its own indecisiveness, lots of words mixed a lack of actions against coordinated and targeted efforts of Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, Cuba, China, Syria and North Korea.

I remember national state TV in Russia talking about "we are ready to nuke United States if needed" in 2014 [1].

So, domestically, government made sure people believe that the West is the mortal enemy and we were are already at some kind of cold war since Crimea annexation, it's just West didn't notice, seems like.

Then, there were also artifical immigration crisis at EU borders created by Russia and Belarus.

And many other various hybrid and asymmetrical attacks.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA9mVLomYo8

So, USA recognized the danger and started dismantling the problem piece by piece, to ensure a long term peace and safety of its people. Could it be better organized and coordinated with allies? Probably, yes, but the meaning stays.

If the west collapses it will be because of its internal problems. Inefficiency, bad government, inequality.

I think you are right that the West is complacent about its enemies because it cannot really shake the belief in its superiority that came from winning the cold war and dominating the world in the decades after, I just do not think that is the biggest threat.

> Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, Cuba, China, Syria and North Korea.

Putting these all in the same list conflates very different situations.

    - Big actual threat with body count: Russia.
    - Russian proxies: Syria (very lethal, but mostly within Syria, not a "threat to the west", complicated by Daesh and AQ)
    - Nasty autocracy but stable cold war: NK
    - Autocracy, but largely minding their own business and with no real capability to threaten: Cuba, Venezuela
    - Major trading partner: China

> USA recognized the danger and started dismantling the problem piece by piece

Trump era has systematically downplayed the threat from Russia. And let's not forget how many members of Trump campaign staff were jailed due to Russian influence.

Is Russia really a threat? It has a small economy. Its no threat at all to the US, and could be easily be beaten by the European NATO countries. It has struggled to take on just Ukraine with western backing.

China has a far bigger economy and far bigger armed forces. It has a history of aggression and has border disputes with multiple countries.

I strongly suspect that people who downplay the risk from China have not yet internalised the fact that no-white countries are powerful too now.

The airliner shootdown? The polonium poisonings? Miscellaneous sabotage attempts in Europe? In addition to, you know, the active war.

There's a lot of things that China "might" do but hasn't so far translated into significant violence, beyond the low-intensity border dispute in the mountains with India. Do they have power? Yes. Are they making threats? Other than a war of words with Japan, not really. What is this "history of aggression"?

Between China and the US, only one of those two has made threats to the territorial integrity of Europe.

> So, USA recognized the danger and started dismantling the problem piece by piece, to ensure a long term peace and safety of its people. Could it be better organized and coordinated with allies? Probably, yes, but the meaning stays.

By becoming part of the problem? Trump threatening to invade Greenland was a wake-up call for Europe. Actively supporting forces that want to tear down democracy in Europe isn’t particularly helpful either.

If we become like China and Russia then why is our civilization in any way better?

Because Iran attacks them relentlessly by proxxy? Hoothis, Hezbullah, Hamas, etc. It also wars with the kurds and had some fun in afghanistan?

Iran is not passive - iran is active, a wannabe us (lets call it micro-satan) - that wants to do what russia did along its borders.

Still none of your business

Persian gulf is everyone’s business.

How about USA proxies? Or are proxy wars just reserved for other party?

> Because Iran attacks them relentlessly by proxxy? Hoothis, Hezbullah, Hamas, etc

Iran doesn't use any of these to attack America. You seem to be confusing Israel for America, a common problem in American politics.

Iranian proxies are responsible for well over 1,000 American deaths since 1979, and there were dozens of foiled plots on American soil and hundreds of individual militia attacks in Iraq and Syria, directed by Iran.

For reference, how many times has the US interfered with Iran's government and how many people in Iran has the US killed since 1979? That's the only way to get a fair view of this discussion. Just wondering if all this happened in a vacuum or, god forbid, Iran maybe has some reason to dislike the US.

“What about…?” Does not make for a good argument.

When the comment is a response to another that justifies current attacks on Iran because Irani proxies killed US, it matters a big F'ing deal that those were in retaliation of the US historically scuttling Iranian parliamentary democracy and killing 50K Iranians by way of chemical munitions alone through its proxy.

No it doesn’t.

The post was replying to this:

>Iran doesn't use any of these to attack America.

This is false, as the post explained.

Saying “what about the US attacking Iran?” does not change the above being false. In fact the US attacking Iran does not change the above false either.

Even if we accept both things as true:

1. Iran has historically attacked the US 2. The US has historically destabilized/attacked Iran

It doesn’t change the fact that “Iran does not use any of these (proxy groups) to attack America” is a false statement.

Skip me with your emotional arguments because I’ll just think you’re posturing and just trying to advance your agenda :-)

There is a difference between "attack" (that has a connotation of being unprovoked and in bad faith) and "retaliation" against acts of drawing first blood.

More so if those primary attacks had 50K killed by way of proxies (100K according to more realistic estimates).

Sometimes, what one dishes out, comes back. If it does, rest of the world thinks it is only fair. Yes Iran has been retaliating, very weakly, to counterbalance attacks on itself by the US and its proxies.

There is not much doubt on who acted in bad faith first.

The US hurting its toe by kicking a stone and then complaining that it is the stone that attacked is not a good argument.

It's like saying "A home owner shot armed burglar in self defense," then crying "self defense is whataboutism! That home owner needs to face mob justice!" Nah. Those tactics of yours simply do not work anymore. Everyone sees through it. Iran wouldn't be doing any of this if they weren't constantly being bombed and attacked and having their leaders assassinated. The strait was open 2 months ago and had no issues. Two countries decided to ruin that and they deserve to face the consequences.

this was a reply to people saying "Iran is not attacking the US". It is of course convenient to bend this discussion into a different direction, but this was a reply to blind propaganda that sees only one side as responsible for bad things.

Why would Iran attack the US? Did they just randomly decide to hate America in 1979? Or did America do something that triggered that hate?

An evil regime requires a constant “evil” enemy to justify its own existence.

How many Russian deaths have been caused by US proxies in Ukraine so far? Do those justify an attack on the US by Russia?

https://www.startpage.com/sp/search?q=US+proxies+in+Ukraine

[To the downvoter, downvoting is not going to change the historical facts]

It was the US that upended Iranian parliamentary democracy with a military coup, sponsored chemical weapons attacks on Irani population (through its proxy Iraq). This killed some 30k to 50k by way of chemical attacks alone. Credible sources estimate 100K killed by these chemical weapons attacks alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_attacks_against...

US shot down their passenger jet. US has imposed crippling sanctions that have decimated the economic well being of the country compared to what it could have been.

Iran Air Flight 655 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai via Bandar Abbas that was shot down on 3 July 1988 by two surface-to-air missiles fired by USS Vincennes, a United States Navy warship. The missiles hit the Iran Air aircraft, an Airbus A300, while it was flying its usual route over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, shortly after the flight departed its stopover location, Bandar Abbas International Airport. All 290 people on board were killed. No apologies yet.

Talking about Iranian proxies alone is one-sided if you don't consider what US-Israel proxies have been doing to them. US Israel have inflicted 10 to 100X more Irani deaths than what Iran has done in retaliation.

You are either ignorant or deliberately underplaying that. Most likely the latter.

Only westerners can be bad actors or at all in historic events racism of the charts? It takes two to tango and iran is dancing its heart out.. and could have had the most peacefull life, if its religion would not involve destroying all "unbelievers" in the middle east - first and foremost aimed at israel.

> if its religion would not involve destroying all "unbelievers" in the middle east -

That would be ultra orthodox zionists and illegal settlers that has been stealing land for decades now.

https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Louis-Theroux-The-Ultra-Zi...

An illuminating documentary. Everyone should give it a watch to understand the Zionist belief system.

There is very little room to doubt who the bad actor is and was. No matter how many canards you can try and thrust, how many attempts you make to color this as a religious holy war.

That the Islamic revolution was and is against Jews is a lie. In any case the Islamic revolution happened because of excesses by the US sponsored Shah who was put in charge after the US dismantled Iran's parliamentary democracy.

Even today Tehran hosts Dr. Sapir Hospital and Charity Center, a Jewish charity hospital, the largest charity among the religious minorities in Iran. It is doing well, thank you.

Ayatollah Khomeini himself wrote a personal note thanking the hospital for its help after the revolution succeeded.

Synagogues in Tehran are doing very well in the Islamic regime, thank you. Except for one that US+Israel bombed recently in Tehran.

This is in contrast to Israeli false flags, such as the Lavon affair and Baghdad synagogue bombings by Israel to drive a rift between Jews and the country they were residing in. Israel has a long documented history of bombing synagogues in other countries in false flag operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

In fact Irani Jews have often criticized Israel when Israel has acted against Palestinians. Chief Rabbi of Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Gerami has denounced Zionist and Israeli policies.

https://www.csmonitor.com/1998/0203/020398.intl.intl.3.html

""" It comes as a surprise to many visitors to discover that Iran, a country so hostile to Israel and with a reputation for intolerance, is home to a small but vibrant Jewish community that is an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution.

"Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians," says Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran. """

Could he say anything else or other? He must sing the dhimi and hostage song for his life depends on it. I know what happens to the ghetto after the friday prayer. Pieces be upon the true believers..

Here is some Hebrew bible. So much for stoning and glass houses.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%202...

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you"

Not to mention Israel's acts on Middle Eastern Jewish people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

It takes two to tango is a weird way to describe western imperialism.

Interesting to see this chemical attack talking point suddenly in the last week. But yet posters here will claim the bad actors are pushing 'zionist' talking points and ignore when an obviously coordinated Iranian talking point is suddenly injected into every thread within a week.

The navy anti-drone team on my last 2 ships in the merchant marine would argue differently

The us is the peace guarantor for maritime trade in the region. Its the protector of several oil powers. When the hoothi shoot on ships, they hit the us.

> they aren't even attacking America

America never invaded Greenland. Nevertheless, we're facing blowback because we threatened it.

Iran has been chanting "death to America" for decades. That isn't casus belli. Not by a long shot. But pretending Iran hasn't been playing the part of belligerent for years is rewriting history.

1979-1981 - Tehran, Iran — 66 Americans held hostage 444 days

1983 Apr - Beirut, Lebanon — 17 Americans killed (U.S. Embassy bombing)

1983 Oct - Beirut, Lebanon — 241 U.S. military killed (Marine barracks bombing)

1984 Mar - Beirut, Lebanon — 1 American killed (CIA chief Buckley kidnapped, later killed)

1985 Jun - Beirut, Lebanon — 1 American killed (TWA Flight 847 hijacking)

1989 Jul - Lebanon — 1 American killed (Col. Higgins murdered)

1995 Apr - Gaza Strip — 1 American killed (car bomb)

1995 Aug - Jerusalem, Israel — 1 American killed, 100+ wounded (bus bombing)

1996 Feb - Jerusalem, Israel — 3 Americans killed, 3 wounded (bus bombing)

1996 Mar - Tel Aviv, Israel — 2 Americans killed (shopping center bombing)

1996 May - West Bank — 1 American killed, 1 wounded

1996 Jun - Khobar, Saudi Arabia — 19 Americans killed, ~500 wounded (Khobar Towers)

1997 Sep - Jerusalem, Israel — 1 American killed, 7 wounded (mall bombing)

1998 Aug - Nairobi/Dar es Salaam — 12 Americans killed, thousands wounded (embassy bombings)

2001 Sep - New York/Washington D.C. — Iran facilitated transit of hijackers (2,977 total killed)

2002 Jan - West Bank — 1 American killed

2002 Jul - Jerusalem, Israel — 5 Americans killed (Hebrew University bombing)

2003 Aug - Jerusalem, Israel — 5 Americans killed (bus bombing)

2003 Oct - Gaza Strip — 3 Americans killed (diplomatic convoy bombing)

2003-2011 - Iraq — 603 U.S. troops killed (Iranian-backed militia IED/EFP campaign)

2011 - Washington D.C. — 0 casualties (assassination plot on Saudi ambassador foiled)

2019 Jun - Strait of Hormuz — 0 casualties (U.S. Global Hawk drone shot down)

2019 Sep - Saudi Arabia — 0 American casualties (Abqaiq oil facility drone strike)

2019 Dec - Baghdad, Iraq — 0 casualties (U.S. Embassy stormed)

2020 Jan - Ain al-Assad, Iraq — 100+ U.S. troops with traumatic brain injuries (ballistic missile strike)

2021-2022 - Iraq/Syria — ongoing U.S. base attacks by Iranian-backed militias

2023 Oct-Nov - Iraq/Syria — 60+ attacks in Iraq, 90+ in Syria; scores of U.S. troops wounded

2024 Jan 28 - Tower 22, Jordan — 3 Americans killed, 34+ wounded (drone strike)

2024 - Red Sea/Yemen — ongoing Houthi drone/missile attacks on U.S. naval assets

2024 Nov - United States — 0 casualties (Trump assassination plot foiled)

30K to 50K Iranians killed by chemical weapons attacks by US proxy, Iraq. Credible sources estimate 100K killed and 30K-50K is a conservative lowball estimate.

This is an active unhealed wound in Iran. Families of the dead still grieve those killed in cemeteries and graves that are there in almost all their major cities.

Iran has every reason to not like the US which has been destabilising and killing and crippling them economically for several decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_attacks_against...

No apologies have been forthcoming.

History doesn't start in 1979. One can draw a direct line to those events from 1953.

Interesting you started in 1979 instead of 1953

Would be stronger with a source. Otherwise, it feels on the border of being potential AI slop.

Oil.

US-Israel struck Iran's desalination plants first.

Iran's targeting strategy has been a capability restrained tit for tat, for the most part. This is true except for attacks on other gulf states right after US-Israel decapitation strike.

And do you blame them? US behaviour in Iraq, Yugoslavia et al has always been to attack power stations and civilian infrastructure first.

The 47th war criminal in chief Trump and his Secretary of War(crimes) is making threats on TV and social media.

I would love to see the terrorist regime of Iran collapse but in this scenario, sorry, the US is completely in the wrong.

> do you blame them?

Blame is a weird word for geopolitics. I think Iran fucked up hitting those targets pre-emptively. Someone at home had to show their hard-liner boss that they were just as hard-line as he is. So they did something macho. The consequences be damned.

The mirroring of dysfunction on each side of this war is uncanny.

Not only threatened it did some "teststrikes"

You seem informed. Why did they do so? And what motivated them?

Sounds like a thing a state would not want to do to their neighbor out of the blue.

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